Kara-Moon Forum

Kara-Moon Projects => Collaboration Songs => Topic started by: Oren on October 04, 2009, 09:08:12 AM



Title: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 04, 2009, 09:08:12 AM
This thread will chronicle a collaboration James (offthewall) and I have been discussing for some time: a blues maneuver :;

We would like to make it something all forum members can monitor as it takes shape, and we intend to post each track here (as an Ogg Vorbis file) and encourage everyone who feels inclined to make their own mix of the song.

Hopefully, it will help give new forum members an idea of how an internet collaboration is accomplished.

A working title: "Rain on Your Parade" 8)


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 04, 2009, 10:17:51 AM
This sounds very interesting  8)

k


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on October 04, 2009, 03:50:41 PM
Indeed it does sound interesting. I shall be watching this.


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 04, 2009, 04:57:54 PM
Poor James...

I laid this wonky percussion track on him... and he actually managed to play a bass line over it!

Here is the sound of a boot toe (mine), tapping on a wooden floor. Now I remember why I gave up on the idea of being a drummer ;D

It's a standard "12 bar blues" layout, in shuffle(syncopated) time.
The tempo is 90 beats per minute.

The first two bars are a count-in,
the second two bars are an intro,
then ten 12-bar segments,
and finally, a two bar finish (outro?).

Once again, feel free to edit and re-arrange these tracks to get them the way you think they should
sound. We are hoping for some radically different productions of this song.


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 04, 2009, 05:10:29 PM
And now for James' bass line.... :-


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 04, 2009, 05:21:57 PM
...and his guitar action.... O0


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 04, 2009, 06:45:30 PM
ok all loaded up in Audacity...
Now I wonder, I have the impression that the beat runs behind James playing ? Listen to my mix, straight import of the tracks in audacity.
Is it supposed to sound like this, otherwise no problem I can cut and slice myself, just a question.

k


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on October 04, 2009, 08:23:54 PM
 ???
You're right, Kara,

I don't know what that Canadian has done ......
but all tracks, so far, have the same 'count-in'.
If you line up the clicks then the tracks will line up ......  ::)

I got some quick and dirty vocal coming up !!!

 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on October 04, 2009, 08:45:50 PM
 ;D
OK ..... hope that is sorted now !!

Here is the first crack at introducing a vocal.

Picking up on Oren's 'footstomp' drum track I thought that a traditional 'walking blues' bass line would fit.

In developing that theme I went straight into a 'walking' lyric.

Here is a take on the first two verses.   I'm not sure yet how it will develop.
Once again, the clicks should line things up !!   ::)

Now, Iím just walkiní Ö away from you
Yes, Iím walkiní Ö. and feeliní blue
And I ainít cominí back Ö no matter how you prayed
Ďcos after what you done to me
Iím gonna rain on your parade.

Iím through with talkiní Ö to you girl
The way you done me wrong Ö you got me in a whirl
Iím gonna give you grief Ö. youíll wish that I had stayed
Just keep on lookiní over your shoulder
You might see me rain on your parade.


 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 04, 2009, 11:40:39 PM
Is it supposed to sound like this, otherwise no problem I can cut and slice myself, just a question.

Yes, we are laying down our tracks "fast and loose" - trying to go with the feeling during performance, then tightening things up (according to individual taste) during production.
Right now, I'm in the process of editing the percussion and bass to get a more cohesive rhythm section.


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Wyatt on October 05, 2009, 08:32:39 AM
Great idea gentlemen..

..and so well put forth.

Thank you for sharing.


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: elwoodblues1969 on October 05, 2009, 02:53:34 PM
This is a novel idea guys! 8) Just completed my entry for the Autumn review,so I'm wide open for this.
I just downloaded everything that was submitted thus far-but have not heard it at the moment,but I'll have a good listen and give it the old college try.

-Thom


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 05, 2009, 06:37:51 PM
Wyatt, Thom,
Thanks for stopping in! :;

Here is James' bass action - edited to include his bet riffs, and time adjusted so the bass and bootbeat line up quite nicely. Load it in your digital audio workstation of choice, and bask in the congruity... :D


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on October 05, 2009, 06:51:25 PM
grabbed for when I have time to stitch it all together.

"congruity"  ???

You been playing with that dictionary again? ;D


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: elwoodblues1969 on October 05, 2009, 10:42:32 PM
What....haven't you noticed that inordinately large cranium that sits on Oren's shoulders?He's got us all beat in the vocabulary department,as I am constantly fumbling for the Merriam-Webster dictionary after reading one of his posts! ??? ;) ;D


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 06, 2009, 12:51:49 AM
What....haven't you noticed that inordinately large cranium that sits on Oren's shoulders?He's got us all beat in the vocabulary department,as I am constantly fumbling for the Merriam-Webster dictionary after reading one of his posts!

Inordinately? Cranium? :; :-


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: elwoodblues1969 on October 06, 2009, 04:22:36 AM
After having added all of the tracks in unison,it generated a very boomy result,so I muted all of the tracks and focused on each one(guitar,bass & vocals) and trimmed them down by shaving off the lower frequencies in the 125Hz to 600Hz range.
I then accentuated these tracks by slightly boosting the higher end in the 1kHz to 4kHz range.

After my trials & tribulations with the boot tap track,I decided to lose it altogether.I tried sampling the boot sound and sequencing it,but to no avail.I then made an attempt to play it live,but was not happy with it.
I rather like this song without the boot tap anyhow.

For the finishing touch,I added a preset compression effect to the master track(don't like messing with the parameters of a compression effect,as it's to easy for me to muck it up & go too far with it).

-Thom


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 06, 2009, 01:44:56 PM
Since this is supposed to be a mixing exercise of a live performance, I had a slightly different approach to it.
It's true that those boot drums lack a bit in the higher freq ranges. To stimulate this I doubled the drum track and pitched it up by 4 semitones, creating an effect of having a bass drum and some kind of snare drum.
I also split the bas track of James bass in mono tracks and used only one of them, this puts the bass right in the middle and makes it less prominent in the lower freq range.
A litle of audacitys gverb gives the mix the live effect.

This is my temporary version, doesn't include James vox yet, I want to concentrate on the instruments first  ;)
I have the audacity project on my external USB harddrive... so what's comming next  ;D

[Edit]
Added a snippet as tmp2 with the vox of James, to give an idea where this is going  ;D

k


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Wyatt on October 06, 2009, 02:44:10 PM
@Thom..interesting strategy..it listens nice..had me reaching for my guitar.

@kara..you really have this live thing down, don't you??  Wow!!


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: elwoodblues1969 on October 06, 2009, 04:22:39 PM
Kara,

In my opinion,rhythmically,the boot tap did not work at all,which is why I left it out....I understand that this is only a mixing exercise,but I think that leaving elements out that I feel do not work,is also part of the mixing process.
As for the whole reverb thing,it was my personal belief,that James's guitar & bass had an ample amount of natural room resonance,so for me to add any more reverb,would just add to the boominess.

The only artificial reverb I added,was that I applied a touch of reverb to James's voice......I was going for the whole cozy little coffee house effect. ;D

-Thom


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: elwoodblues1969 on October 06, 2009, 04:23:24 PM
Thanks for the comments Wyatt. 8)

-Thom


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 06, 2009, 05:25:29 PM
Kara,

In my opinion,rhythmically,the boot tap did not work at all,which is why I left it out....I understand that this is only a mixing exercise,but I think that leaving elements out that I feel do not work,is also part of the mixing process.

-Thom

Well... let me disagree with you.
When I mix a song for somebody else, my priority is respect for the artist(s).
So if the artist makes a track I always ask myself 2 questions
1. What was he expressing with his track?
2. How can I fit this in a mix ?

In my opinion, from what I heard of the posted tracks, at this stage, is that we are going for a live performance.
Now, I don't know how much you played live Thom, but I did (and still do) a fair bit of this. With experience I know that doing live gigs isn't always perfect, sometimes there are great surprises (you know those errors that just work) and sometimes it sounds average.
But even it is average, when you mix it, you have to make the best of it. I honestly don't think that a mixing engineer can decide that he doesn't want to use a track without asking the performers. Other opinions can differ of course.

And, yes, mixing a studio performance with perfect track, sequenced or played over and over again until they are perfect, is another domain.

Having said this, I think that in my final mix, I will clean up a bit the boot track (I agree Oren isn't a drummer  ;D ) but I'm sure I will use it.

k

 


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 06, 2009, 05:58:34 PM
Yo! Two radically different productions... just what I'd hoped for... :-
I like both approaches - wonderful ambience in two stylistic directions.

Upon listening to the mixed bootbeat action, I think we should shoot the hoser who is tapping his feet. Kara's mix really gaves the bootbeat a cool "live in the local town hall" flavor, but the the guy simply sucks ::). I'll try another bit of toe-tap action with hits on beats 1 and 3... If that doesn't sound any better, maybe we should just rely on James' bass to carry the bottom end 8).



Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 06, 2009, 06:08:24 PM
t If that doesn't sound any better, maybe we should just rely on James' bass to carry the bottom end 8).



We'll see (or hear ;D) what you come up with, but it will need some drums or percussion action, even if it performed with boots  ;)

k


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on October 06, 2009, 06:32:18 PM
Some very high quality work being done here. Way above my standard, so I think I'll just sand back and listen!


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 06, 2009, 06:43:11 PM
...so I think I'll just sand back...

Hold on Will... I think I have a "t" for you here, somewhere :D.


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on October 06, 2009, 07:42:20 PM
...so I think I'll just sand back...

Hold on Will... I think I have a "t" for you here, somewhere :D.
Oh har-de-har har :)

Hmmm. An Englisman missing his T. Must be the German half  ;D


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Wyatt on October 06, 2009, 08:12:22 PM

Once again, feel free to edit and re-arrange these tracks to get them the way you think they should
sound. We are hoping for some radically different productions of this song.

Thanks for the invite.   :P

PS..no shooting the hoser, eh??


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on October 06, 2009, 08:39:30 PM
Hey ...  :o

some serious remixing going down here !!!

First off ....
sorry, I started to get involved in this project and then ....  ::) whatd'ya know ..... a whole slice of real life kicks in  ::)
I got so many domestic problems at the moment, ... but I will try to get to grips with this.

Thom ..... I like your approach, the clarity is first rate but the timing is a bit off.  This could be due to the slightly mis-timed click intro's.

Kara .... I love the 'live' feel that you can put in to a project like this.   I fully agree that there is a world of difference between a 'studio' recording and a 'live' one.  You seem to be able to capture that club atmosphere.  That is what I like, personally.

I'm sorry if my contributions are going to be slower than I anticipated.
I have been working on a couple of additional tracks, to build this up.
One is an acoustic slide guitar .... and the other is  :o (don't tell Wyatt)  :o a harmonica.   8)

If I can get these done, over the next couple of days, I intend to play maybe three or four measures/verses of each, so that we can cut/dodge/copy/paste the various segments into the whole song as 'additions'.
At the moment I'm trying to expand the 'song story'.   I'm currently waiting to see if the Canadian is going to embellish this segment.  :-*

If I can find the time I can tell a little anecdote to show how I feel about this project ...... I'll see what I can do later.  :-X
 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Wyatt on October 06, 2009, 08:50:59 PM

I have been working on a couple of additional tracks, to build this up.
One is an acoustic slide guitar .... and the other is  :o (don't tell Wyatt)  :o a harmonica.   8)


Yay!!..be my guest!!  Looking forward to it.   :;

Meantime I am following this thread with interest, and if I can dig my way out from under a mountain of stuff I would love to do a wee bit of "radically different".

Meantime brother, take care of yourself.


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: elwoodblues1969 on October 06, 2009, 08:53:11 PM
Kara,

However wrong my version is,I was given permission to craft it the way I think it should sound and when I did that,I was being disrespectful to the artist?I don't get it.

-Thom


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on October 06, 2009, 09:30:09 PM
 8)
This is not connected to any comments about this song, more to explain my personal attitude to it.

In 1964, when I was 15 years old I was playing in a 'pop group' doing covers of Beatles/Stones/Searchers type of songs. I got my first guitar when I was 13.
We set up at a local gig and went to start the first song. I got hold of the mic stand with one hand whilst holding my guitar in the other .... and was electrocuted ... thrown across the stage with my hair on end .... finished up in hospital with severe burns to both hands.  ::)
Anyway, to get to the point.
A lady friend came to visit and brought me a couple of LP's to listen to when I got home to recouperate.
This was the turning point. Some music I had not heard of before  :o
John Lee Hooker and Sonny Boy Williamson were my mentors from then on.  :-*

The more I sourced, and listened to, this type of music the more I related to it.
At that time in the UK there was no access to Blues music unless you had a big brother or cousin who went to sea and could bring stuff back from the States.

What people have often got wrong, in my opinion, is the feeling that 'white men can't sing the blues'.
Listening to this music taught me that, especially coming from a heavily industrialised area where men worked hard for little money and had all of the social deprivations of most oppressed sectors of society, if you felt the story in the song then you could transmit that story to the listening audience.

I feel that, nowadays, people so often 'pigeonhole' musical styles so much that, to learn to play 'in that style' can produce the music ......  ::)
I have to disagree and say that, to produce the music you have to 'feel it' first.

So ..... from my point of view, this project is all about playing the Blues ..... not really about how it actually fits in to an accepted style !

I'm off to bed now.
Maybe I'll play the blues a bit tomorrow to get this outa my system.
 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 07, 2009, 12:03:08 AM
...In 1964, when I was 15 years old...
... I got hold of the mic stand with one hand whilst holding my guitar in the other .... and was electrocuted ... thrown across the stage with my hair on end .... finished up in hospital with severe burns to both hands...
...What people have often got wrong, in my opinion, is the feeling that 'white men can't sing the blues'...
... to produce the music you have to 'feel it' first...
... from my point of view, this project is all about playing the Blues ...

James,
You were 15 years old in 1964??!! Yikes, we better get this song done before you expire from antiquity... ;)
Although I didn't reach age 15 until 1970, the two-prong-plug-permacurl-hair-treatment was still a frequent perk for those of us who played an electric instrument and sang... speaking of feeling the music...
And I agree blue is blue, no matter what your heritage.

Here is another crack at a homegrown percussion track - this time, a toe tap accompanied by a table rap.

Plus, some vocal effort... ::) :P :D


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 07, 2009, 08:07:57 AM
Kara,

However wrong my version is,I was given permission to craft it the way I think it should sound and when I did that,I was being disrespectful to the artist?I don't get it.

-Thom


Thom,
I never said that you where disrespectful, I was only explaining how I see the job of mixing a song.
Let's respectfully agree that we disagree  ;D

k


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 07, 2009, 10:21:45 AM
A new version of my mix.
After getting in the second drum track of Oren, I thought it was good but lacked a bit of swing for the song. Therefore I decided to make a mix of both drum tracks, to add a bit of swing which goes with the rest of the band.

Finally I decided to move the band from the town hall to a bar  ;D

k



Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: elwoodblues1969 on October 07, 2009, 12:45:25 PM
Woah Rony!You are really dialed into this...it's got a whole lot of soul! An incredibly seamless production of all of the elements...the boot/table tap tracks are superb,the way you've woven them together!
I really like the left pan on James's voice also and the bar effects are right on the money!  :;

(http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Music/blues-brothers-076.gif)

-Thom


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on October 07, 2009, 03:30:34 PM
This has to be the best mix yet  8)
Great song too.

P.S.
With anti-smoking laws for so long isn't it about time they repainted that club :)


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 07, 2009, 05:31:45 PM
Thanks for the approval  8)
The mix isn't perfect yet, but it will be once I have all parts  ;D

k
 


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 07, 2009, 09:11:09 PM
Kara,
Combining the two percussion tracks accomplished the impossible :D - a coherent beat from my mother's oldest son(me)... :- Schweet!


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on October 07, 2009, 09:18:05 PM
 ???
I'm getting deeper into 'stuff' over here .....  ::)

But last night I said:
Quote
Maybe I'll play the blues a bit tomorrow to get this outa my system.

so here is a couple of sections on the harp !
The idea, as with most of the project, is for you to cut and use the best bits and reject the rest .....  8)
Do your worst, mon amigos.  :-*

 ;)
James

p.s.
stellar mix, Rony  :-*


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 07, 2009, 10:58:45 PM
James,

Thanks for that harpoonage - can't wait to get to the cut-and-dodge action ;D

Attached are the two percussion tracks as I will deploy them in my production -  mixed and compressed for your convenience.

And... the vocal again... this time with the two missing verses inserted (finally thought of some lyrics... ::))


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 08, 2009, 12:23:43 PM
First the bad news : We took the harpoon in emergency to the hospital where he was undergoing heavy operations  >:D It seems they cut up in pieces and then reassembled the piece in a different order  ::) I wonder how the guy looks right now  ;D

Now the good news : He's still alive  :-

For those interested in mixing techniques (you never know  ;)  ) , an extract of my mix logbook

1. When I compared both vocal parts (Oren & James) I noticed that they didn't realy sounded as in the same room. This is a typical problem when mixing tracks coming from different places... First of all, I saw (with my ears  :D ) the vox track from James was recorded straight from the mic and the one from Oren went trough a compressor (I think). The vox of James sounded a bit thin compared to Oren. To give the vox of James a bit more body I used an old which I learned from an old studio engineer : I splitted the stereo track in 2 mono track and slided one of the track a bit (couple of msec's) forward. Instant result :)

2. EQ'ing of the tracks
a. Toe&table (kick simulation)
    Roll off below 40 Hz
    1 db boost - 60 Khz
    1 db boost - 5 kHz (gives a bit more attack)
b. Other drum track (snare simulation)
    Roll off below 300 Hz (we don't want to interfere with the kick and the bass)
    1 db boost - 3 kHz (attack again)
    1 db boost - 7 kHz
c. Bass guitar
    Roll of below 40 Hz
    1 db boost 800 Hz (give it a bit more body in the mix)
    1 db boost - 2,5 kHz (accentuates the attack on some notes)
d. Harp
    Roll off above 15 KHz (we want to leave room for the snares)
e. Guitar
    Leave room for other instruments :
    -1 db - 2,5 kHz
    -0,5 db - 7 Khz
    Accentuate his great sound :
    +1 db - 8 kHz
3. Adjust levels and make submix.
4. Add reverb.
    I decided to drop the bar and take the band to a studio, still respecting the live feel.
5. Normalize
6. Export to OGG

All done in Audacity and no Vst's
A little 5 hours job  ;D

k

 

 


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on October 08, 2009, 02:23:11 PM
 :o     :;

Rony,
What a mix    :;

That is superb, maestro mixer.

My only criticism would be that you used too much of that dang harpoon ....... you were supposed to chop out the bad bits ..... um, sorry ..... the 'worst' bits  ::)

Fantastic.
 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 08, 2009, 03:41:33 PM
:o     :;

 ....... you were supposed to chop out the bad bits ..... um, sorry ..... the 'worst' bits  ::)


It"s all part of the gig James  ;D I just couldn't decide which part to left out. Perhaps if other parts will be added, I'll chop something off  ;)

k
 


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 08, 2009, 04:41:44 PM
All done in Audacity and no Vst's
A little 5 hours job  ;D

Outstanding production, Kara!

This is a great example of how a talented engineer/producer can take some very "raw" musical input and edit-effect-mix a pro quality production.
What James and I hope to do is continue refining the song. He will compose/record another guitar track once we have the vocals finally in place. I will do my vocals again (all in one take) once I decide how to include "rain on your parade" in the lyric. Then, I would like to lay down some blue guitar.
With luck, a song from two ragged old rock-n-roll refugees will develop into a polished piece of "radio ready" digital audio.(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/musik/music-smiley-006.gif)(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/musik/music-smiley-007.gif)(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/musik/music-smiley-016.gif)


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on October 08, 2009, 06:02:24 PM
Has a great lazy quality to it  O0
Really sounds like a band now too.


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on October 08, 2009, 09:22:02 PM
 8)
OK
I think this is my final vocal part ..... unless someone asks for extra ...  ::)

If I can find time tomorrow I want to re-record the bass line .... tidy things up a bit  >:D

 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Wyatt on October 09, 2009, 08:35:11 AM
This is definitely a project well done.

I think kara has taken it pretty much where it was wanting to go, and I appreciate those detailed posts.

Very informative.

A great job by all concerned.

Congratulations..


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 22, 2009, 06:56:05 PM
Very informative...A great job by all concerned...Congratulations..

Hey Speedy :D, we're not done yet!

Here is my finished vocal. Placement is not final - it could be chopped up and distributed differently. I would like to try mixing up my verses with James' verses for a "back and forth" effect...


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on October 22, 2009, 11:01:44 PM
I would like to try mixing up my verses with James' verses for a "back and forth" effect...
Was that a question... or an answer :D


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 23, 2009, 01:44:02 AM
Was that a question... or an answer :D

A proposal... request for recommendations... fair warning?! ;D


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 23, 2009, 06:45:04 AM
I think I'll have some fun this weekend  ;D

k


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 23, 2009, 07:31:01 AM
I think I'll have some fun this weekend  ;D
Excellent! :- James is having another go at the bass track, and once the vocals are edited and placed in the song, we will both lay down some fresh guitar to compliment the final arrangement.

I'm still very much committed to tweaking this production to pro-audio standards - crisp, detailed, and musical. (I love this stuff!)
One significant challenge will be to EQ and effect our vocal tracks so we sound like we're in the same room... difficult, but not impossible... 8)


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 24, 2009, 11:35:07 AM
okey here is a new mix, temporary just to keep everyone posted where this is going


One significant challenge will be to EQ and effect our vocal tracks so we sound like we're in the same room... difficult, but not impossible... 8)

True, not completely done in my mix, I"m waiting for all parts

k


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Wyatt on October 24, 2009, 05:15:48 PM
okey here is a new mix, temporary just to keep everyone posted where this is going


One significant challenge will be to EQ and effect our vocal tracks so we sound like we're in the same room... difficult, but not impossible... 8)

True, not completely done in my mix, I"m waiting for all parts

k


This just keeps getting better!


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Moon on October 24, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
I like the vibes and the atmosphere in this one. James, your voice is great in this type of music. And also... I really like the harmonica !

Great !


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Moon on October 24, 2009, 05:40:46 PM
I've been listening to this one a couple of times. This one is absote fantastic !!! It's amazing to see and hear how much progress these colaborations are making !

This is PRO TOP QUALITY !!! Absolutely fantastic, rocking amazing !!!

You guys are making me pride !  ;)

Moon


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on October 24, 2009, 10:43:47 PM
The way this has developed is incredible O0 :;


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on October 25, 2009, 12:07:39 AM

This is PRO TOP QUALITY !!! Absolutely fantastic, rocking amazing !!!


Moon

Not yet but it will be once it's finished  ;)

k


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 25, 2009, 05:19:48 AM
This is PRO TOP QUALITY !!! Absolutely fantastic, rocking amazing !!!
Moon
Not yet but it will be once it's finished 
k

Better and better!
Kara, thanks for persevering with this project. :-*


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on October 26, 2009, 08:19:18 AM
For those who are still interested in this, here is the 'final' version of the bass line.
 8)

 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 26, 2009, 04:29:50 PM
This is PRO TOP QUALITY !!! Absolutely fantastic, rocking amazing !!!
You guys are making me pride !  ;)
Moon,
This is an opportunity to see what can be done with a relatively low-tech approach to internet collaboration: Kara mixing and mastering in Audacity and Reaper on a laptop, the files posted on our forum in Ogg Vorbis format, and with performances by two "low-tech" old players.
Thanks for listening :;


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on October 26, 2009, 04:32:39 PM
The way this has developed is incredible O0 :;

We're going for the whole enchilada, Senor... ;D (thanks for listening)


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on October 26, 2009, 04:34:18 PM
 :o
Yup ....
Quote
and with performances by two "low-tech" old players.
ya don't get much lower or older than me   :'(

 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on October 26, 2009, 08:12:24 PM
Oi! James. You just pack in that running yourself down. D'yer hear? Stop it! right now!

{mutter}what does the fool think he pays us for{mutter} ;D


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on November 02, 2009, 06:19:24 AM
Here is a bit of electric guitar to distribute through the production.

 I performed it with my old Digitech processor engaged, because recording "dry" electric guitar is, for me, much like stuffing your shirt in the sound-hole of an acoustic guitar - it makes for a "cleaner" recording, but the tonal nuances of the instrument are lost... ::)


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on November 02, 2009, 09:45:27 AM
I have day off today and will put some work in this today
Result later on.....

k


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on November 02, 2009, 01:05:43 PM
That 'some' work became a couple of hours  ::)

First challenge was to get the 2 vocals in the same room...
I put the 2 vocal tracks in a separate project, and put them one after the other to compare them without the music.
First thing I noticed was the fundamental difference in recording.
James tracks was (I think) a raw recording directly from the mic, as on Oren track there was compression.
I tried some different compression settings on James vox to get the same compression amount.
After that I noticed that there was some sort of nasal tunnel effect on the recording of James, nothing extreme but it made the clear difference between both recordings. Best way to get rid of that was EQ (hint : listen around 125 Hz :) )
I finally put some EQ on Orens voice to really get it in the same room.

Now, that extra guitar track was a new challenge. It was clear that due to the fx Oren used it didn't fit with the guitar track of James. I've added a small plate reverb directly on the track of the guitar of James, and some EQ on the guitar track of Oren to fix them together.

I think this will be my final mix... adding more instruments to the mix won't add anything to the song, after all it is supposed to be a band that is playing and not a grand symphonical orchestra  ;D

k
 


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: impablomations on November 02, 2009, 01:56:53 PM
Nice one guys!   8)

Been great to watch this one slowly develop as it comes together.  To me, this is what KM is all about, COLLABORATION

 :- :-


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on November 02, 2009, 05:04:26 PM
 :-[
I'm afraid I just had to throw something else in .....  :-X

The other week I was lucky enough to pick up a bargain price beat-up old 'dobro' style guitar. I spent the past week renovating it ..... so in the interests of 'authentic' blues sound I had to throw it in to this project.

This is my (probably) final mix.


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on November 02, 2009, 08:15:24 PM
Just had a listen to these last two versions. I didn't think they'd be any better but you both managed to squeeze a few more drops of blues out of the song O0


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on November 03, 2009, 07:32:16 AM
And for variety's sake, here is a mix that reflects my questionable taste in audio production. ::)
(...apologies in advance to James for taking massive liberties while editing his tracks...)


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on November 03, 2009, 08:51:31 AM
It's interesting to hear how different people put together a puzzle in a different way ;D
Somehow I missed part of the lyrics of James in the different posts.

Still, I think our production techniques lay close together  8)

All in all, this was a mighty interesting topic

k


And for variety's sake, here is a mix that reflects my questionable taste in audio production. ::)
(...apologies in advance to James for taking massive liberties while editing his tracks...)


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on November 03, 2009, 05:01:58 PM
It's interesting to hear how different people put together a puzzle in a different way ;D

Still, I think our production techniques lay close together

All in all, this was a mighty interesting topic...

A puzzle, yes! 8) Audio engineering and production can be just as creative as singing, songwriting, or playing an instrument. With computers and and digital audio, even more so.

My approach to this project was to sample and "loop" the best parts of each track (where possible). Here is what Ardour looks like when it was complete:


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on November 03, 2009, 05:03:41 PM
 8)
Hey, you're right.  It is so interesting to see how different approaches work.

I got to say that I like Oren's mix the best.  :;

Super job from the Canadian.  

 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on November 03, 2009, 05:34:07 PM
 :o
Great idea !!!
Quote
Here is what Ardour looks like when it was complete

Here it is in Reaper:

 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on November 03, 2009, 05:40:22 PM
I was hoping to come up with a "legitimate" blues song, and a collaboration with James and Kara got the job done. :-

The finishing touches were James' harmonica stylings, and of course his awesome Johnson....


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on November 04, 2009, 11:48:20 PM
I've gone over my most recent mix with a careful ear, and all that needs adjusting is the reverberation to further consolidate our instruments and vocals "in the same room".

James has big mojo, and working with him as a singer and instrumentalist has been pure pleasure.
Kara has such a firm grasp of the fundamentals of engineering and production - he was able to coach us toward a better mix and the best use of our performances.

I had hoped to include this song in the collection of blues music from our blues "band" consisting of the staff and guests of Hostelling International Victoria here in British Columbia, Canada... "Blue Muthers Island Remedy" ... and the Muthers agreed it would be a good idea.
So, although James and Kara have never actually visited our little hostel, they are officially, Blue Muthers. :;
........  www.motagator.net/Blue_Muthers_Island_Remedy  ......

Attached are some photos of other Muthers...


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on November 05, 2009, 05:24:02 PM
My final mix... comparing favourably to several of my "reference recordings" from Johnny Winter and Chris Rea, and tweaked one last time November 19 2009 :D


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on November 05, 2009, 06:46:38 PM
My final mix...
Look, I keep telling you. There is no such thing as a 'finished' song  ::)

I'll have a listen as soon as poss.


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: MarioD on November 06, 2009, 01:19:58 AM
You ainít raining on my parade guys as I thought this was fantastic :-

A great blend of blues harp, guitar, slide guitar and vocals with just the right amount of bass and drums.

I have listened to a lot of blues (itís one of my favorite music genres) in my day and this is one of the best Iíve heard in a long time. You should be VERY PROUD  of this one  :;


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on November 06, 2009, 04:48:08 AM
Will,
Evidently you were right - as soon as I read your post it occurred to me a re-mix was in order.... ;D

Mario,
We tried to keep it intimate and natural. I'm glad you had a listen and enjoyed it. This genre has been done so well by so many people that it's a little scary to throw one more out there... ::)... ;)


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: kara on November 07, 2009, 09:29:53 AM
. You should be VERY PROUD  of this one  :;

Very true, it all started with a couple of ideas and some tracks.
Now it's a great song

k


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on November 07, 2009, 09:54:02 PM
 8)
I just want to say a big 'thank you' for all the positive comments.   :-*

This has been quite an interesting project as we both set off in an attempt to regain some of the feelings and inspiration that we each had many moons ago.  Back then, at least from my own point of view, the blues style was a phenomenon which gradually crept into the musical psyche. It started out as a minority style of music but inevitably went on to influence so much of modern popular music.
My own introduction to the style was at a pivotal point in my musical education, so I have found this exercise to be a wonderful journey back to those days.  It has certainly decided me to carry on exploring some of the things that I have long forgotten.

Thanks, Oren, for talking me in to this.   :;

As always ..... this is the best place 'ever' for musical collabs.
Many thanks to Kara and Moon.   :-*

 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: offthewall on November 13, 2009, 10:20:48 PM
 8)
Just as a 'finishing off' touch ....

Oren got us singing in the same room ...

so here is a picture of that gig  ::)   :-X    ;D

 ;)
James


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on November 14, 2009, 05:26:53 AM
...Just as a 'finishing off' touch ....
Schweet!... :o... :-*... :-

Final mix...


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on December 22, 2009, 09:21:09 PM
Final mix eh?

You sure about that  ;)

You guys seem to keep finding holes that need filling ::)

Once again, this is excellent work...

... and that's my final comment ;D


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Wyatt on December 23, 2009, 12:33:20 PM
Wow..this kicks!!

Beautiful sound space y'all are getting down in.

Vocals and instruments are picture perfect.

Just when I thought it couldn't get any better you kick it up a notch!

Awesome work gentlemen.   :;


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: elwoodblues1969 on December 23, 2009, 03:07:30 PM
Once I closed my eyes while listening,the thousands of miles disappeared & you were both in my room with me....recordings don't get any better than this! :D

-Thom


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on December 23, 2009, 04:36:50 PM
Will,
Until this mix we had a "fragmented" quality to the production that rankled. Thanks for listening - I think cohesion has occurred... ;D

Wyatt,
Given all the whacked-out sound-sources we are working with, and exchanging tracks as Ogg Vorbis files, I had serious doubts as to the potential for pulling it all together.
Thanks for your positive feedback; it seems we have arrived. :-

Thom,
I was waiting for your comments, principally because of the high-end listening environment you have assembled over the last couple of years, and because you are accustomed to working with accurate pitch and timing from your synthesizers.
 I think of this passing as our "acid test"... :;


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on January 17, 2013, 01:14:33 AM
And, the track in LAME VBR to play back on your MP3 player...


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: elwoodblues1969 on January 17, 2013, 02:54:08 AM
Never heard a better arrangement from you cats..in terms of composition,performance & overall production...not ever....real shiny! (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-music021.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
I really felt the presence of a live performance....one of the most stellar & pristine sounding recordings I've ever heard... especially in MP3! I've read how so many people have blamed the MP3 format for their lackluster recordings and yet,this rendering is indistinguishable from WAV or any other format for that matter!
Just goes to show,that in the right hands & with the right encoding,MP3's rock! (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-music033.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


Monumental work,gentlemen! (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-music030.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: Oren on January 17, 2013, 05:13:08 PM
 Thanks!     
  "Fred" :-*


Title: Re: James and the Canadian go Blue
Post by: folderol on January 17, 2013, 10:13:47 PM
Well, it's been a time, but this still sounds bright and fresh.