Kara-Moon Forum

I copied my posting from the Motifator forum to here,because I am in utter turmoil and conflict over whether or should continue on with this ordeal and I need all of the input I can get on this;

I’ve had quite a few online friends tell me that Cubase is a nightmare in terms of it’s tedious complexity and what a hindrance it is regarding workflow and they all discarded it and moved onto other DAW’s....& I’m beginning to see why.

What’s really disturbing to me,is that these people weren’t even contending with all of the added complications of using the MOX,with Cubase...so I have it 10 times worse than they ever did.

I just spent 3 hours reading through & studying the article on how
to move a song into Cubase...verifying that all of the settings on my MOX6 were correct and meticulously following the instructions and yet somehow,I must have missed something.

After all my efforts,I not only accomplished nothing,but also managed to wipe out all of the track settings in my song,that I had stored in the internal memory of the MOX,as all he tracks are on the default piano setting.
Not only are all of the tracks in song mode pianos now,but all the tracks in Cubase are still piano sounds and the only way to change the sounds on the tracks in Cubase,is to do it manually,it seems.

I saved everything in song mode as a SMF to my USB stick as the instructions indicated,so why would this effect the settings that were saved into the internal memory?

I find it decidedly inconvenient that I have to shut down my MOX,just to transfer the SMF file to Cubase via the USB stick into my computer...wtf?
What’s the point of having all of this built in PC integration on the MOX6 and having a USB cable connected to my PC and yet,I still have to power down to yank out the USB stick every time I want to move a song to Cubase??

Maybe I’m just being too impatient here,but sh*t man,I am making zero progress with Cubase thus far and I am trying to determine whether or not I should just return my MOX6 while I can still get a refund & save up for an XF6 and just forget about Cubase altogether?

I truly love the MOX6 itself,but setting everything up in Cubase is aggravating as f**k.

I really hope that the tutorial DVD will be out soon to clear up this whole mess and I hope it’s effective in doing so,because I have never seen so many configurations and settings in my entire life.

I’m also hoping that in a few weeks from now,I will look back on this whole ordeal and wonder why I was so confused by all of this to begin with,because the DVD did it’s job by revealing how easy it all is,once you have your bearings.

As far I know,Yamaha seems to be the only company that makes their own DVD tutorials for all of their keyboards and for good reason apparently,due to how comprehensive the computer integration is.

I only got involved in computer recording 3 years ago and now I really regret not having done so many years earlier.

I'm in real trouble here,read this...


Hi - saw your post about your frustration with
Cubase.

Since I do work as a consultant for Yamaha, I
can’t really say publicly on the forum that
Cubase sucks - but the fact is, it is the worst DAW on the planet, by far. I have Pro
Tools, Logic, Digital Performer, and Cubase,
and it is the worst one of the four.

Too bad you’re not on a Mac using Logic or
Digital Performer because you would never have
these problems there.

I strongly advise you to dump the PC and get
a Mac and either Logic or Digital Performer and bail on Cubase altogether.

If you can.

After some serious self deliberation,I've decided to use my MOX6 exclusively with my Presonus S1 DAW,despite the fact that the MOX6 does not specifically support Presonus.

My main concern,is having the ability to apply software effects to individual tracks from my on-board sequencer and I resolved to just record each track individually into my DAW as audio,via the built in audio interface and just keep things simple.

I've come to the conclusion,that I foresee no significant gain on my part,by bearing the hassle and expense of returning my MOX6,to save up for the XF6.

This concludes my crisis....now it's time for me to cease all of the cockamamie sh*t with Cubase and get back on the scene and finish my damn entry into the quarterly contest! (http://planetsmilies.net/violent-smiley-1423.gif) (http://planetsmilies.net)



-Thom

Holy sh*t! :o
Good call, Ump! 8)
The Yamaha is likely a quality piece of hardware, so use it for the onboard sounds and that responsive keyboard, and do your digital audio production in your computer.

- for what it's worth, given my limited exposure to hardware synths, my preference would be one high-end Korg that doubles as a MIDI controller, and do everything else on my computer with a DAW and soft-synths (Kurzweil was my brand of choice until they outsourced production to Asian factories... Korg has been making fine Asian-built synthesizers for a very long time) -

Thom, you should be able to use your Yamaha as a sound source also.  You should be able to record midi from it into your DAW then play it back via the Yamaha using any voice.  You should be able to play back any midi track on it.

Mario,

I noticed that when I opened up my Presonus DAW,my MOX6 appeared as a VST in my DAW(but for the time being,I really wanted to get the ball rolling on my current project),so I began laying down tracks,by just playing my on-board sequencer and recording the audio directly.

I will tinker around with the VST end of things when I get around to it,but it will be a total hands on approach-for the most part,because closely following the instructions in the PDF tutorials really screwed me up,when I was trying to sort everything out in Cubase. ::)

I suspect I won't run into any major hitches,when configuring things in my Presonus DAW. :)


-Thom

Thom, this is a very strong statement you're making here. I'm sorry Cubase didn't worked out for you, but I'm sure many people are very happy with it and judging on the music they're make with it, they should stick to it!  ;)

To get the records straight: Cubase is a great software, as is Cakewalk and Logic and many more... Only not every software fits the need of everybody, so what's great for one, may not be the best for somebody else. On that, I do agree with you!

Moon

Moon,

Perhaps one day, I will give Cubase another chance,as I miss the ability to utilize the transport controls on the MOX6....but I will need the help of a MOX6 video tutorial to pull it off,because I can't make any sense out of the written manuals. ???

Yes,it is a strong statement,but it's from a guy who makes instructional videos for Yamaha and as previously mentioned,he is a consultant for Yamaha and he knows Cubase inside & out and Mario,James and a tech support consultant from the Presonus as forum as well, all feel the same way about Cubase. :-[


-Thom

Been a very happy user of Cubase for years myself. It's not perfect - but it's very flexible and usually very stable (the exception being some unruly VSTi's). What I particularly love about the newest versions is the track presets which allow me to define a track setup (say a VSTi with a certain preset followed by some effects and eq'd with certain settings) and to go back to it just by pressing a key. I've been using Cubase ever since Logic went Mac-only (and this was after Logics audio engine went absolutely unusable on my PC, I never could track the problem). I use Live as well but just for live purposes.

In the past we've always kept KM as a place where we discuss music and tools to create, not a place to debate which DAW or synth is the best. There is a difference between stating what doesn't work for you and just condemning said program as unworkable.

And to be honest: I have my doubts over professional users who harbour such strong opinions. :-\

Well....the whole point of this particular discussion,is the tremendous amount of difficulty,some people are having with Cubase & each person's problems are different..depending on what version of Cubase they're using and what hardware they're using with it.

Since you don't own the Yamaha MOX6,you have no idea,the amount of difficulty & frustration I went through with Cubase AI5....all of which,remains unresolved.

To be perfectly honest with you,if my Presonus DAW was one of the recording platforms that worked exclusively with my MOX6,I wouldn't give Cubase another thought,not ever.

Though I am brand new to Cubase,my unfamiliarity with it,shouldn't require that I buy a DVD tutorial,just so I can get started. >:( I made the mistake of asking for help on the Motifator forum and I mentioned what this guy had said about Cubase and all hell broke loose. ::)

A moderator on that forum,chose to have a tantrum over the fact that I mentioned that a Yamaha employee didn't like Cubase and he felt compelled to insinuate what a moron I am,that I have no aptitude for learning Cubase and that I should stick to programs such as GarageBand.

Why do some people become so insulted,if someone doesn't bow down and worship Cubase?

Perhaps if decide to go through with purchasing the DVD tutorial and/or I were to upgrade to another version of Cubase,it may clear up my issues.

Since you are familiar with Cubase and if you were to buy an MOX,then you are more likely to breeze through the configuration process in Cubase with the MOX....but as for me,my issues brought everything to a halt and Cubase was simply unusable.

I didn't have any problems with learning the MOX6's functions regarding on-board functions and recording,which was mainly due to my long experience with hardware workstations(even though the layout is radically different from Korg's)....but even with my few years experience with recording software,I couldn't make heads or tails of Cubase AI5,despite the fact that the online articles on the Motifator website seemed to be fairly comprehensive.

I realize that you have a lot more experience with software than I do and that you are more intelligent than I am,but I had such a ridiculously hard time trying to configure all of the functions of the MOX6 and Cubase AI5 and all of the various manuals and articles got me absolutely nowhere and on top of all that,a consultant for Yamaha tells me to forget Cubase altogether?!What would you do,in my situation?

It's also worth mentioning,that since I already have the Presonus DAW and that I am on a budget,it wouldn't make sense for me to spend extra coin on upgrading from Cubase AI5,especially since it is a fully functional DAW and that if I could just get it to work properly,I would have no need or desire to upgrade(at least not anytime in the near future).

I have not condemned Cubase for all of eternity,but rather the whole situation that resulted from it,was something I had to get away from,as it was driving me absolutely mad.



-Thom

Hi Thom. let's set this straight: I'm not denying that you have a problem getting the setup right and that setting up shouldn't require a dvd or whatever. I'm certainly not implying that I'm more intelligent - good Lord, far from it. I hate as much the attitude of those forum members on the Yamaha forum you mention. Like I said, Cubase isn't perfect (what is, too everyone?) - but to jump from that to the conclusion that it should be dropped and/or not a good DAW (based both on what you're saying and the expert you're quoting) is too big a step and not helpful.

Like you said, I don't own a MOX6 (seen a demo though and it looks and sounds absolutely stunning) but I would recommend that - if the integration doesn't work right - you'd treat the synth as a normal sound source and record track by track, which is what I do. The reason I do that is quite simple: I consider everything I record with as changeable, and when I settle on what to play and which sound I always record it. This means that whenever I go back to it I always have the exact sound I originally had. Second, the synth can always employ all its effects and stuff to each individual patch and third: I prefer mixing in the box, using the Cubase EQ and reverb (C6 has a great convolution hall). The track presets allow me to quickly conjure up a specific VSTi or an audio track to record my hardware synths.

Tbh - I think your frustration is actually a sign of you being more determined than I am. :) I've long ago concluded that perfect integration was to complex to actually be easily maintained and to reward all the effort that went into it. I've found a workflow that works for me - and works very quickly. But that took some years of continually thinking about what I  wanted to do and what I actually needed.

Hey Marc,

By my estimation(based on what I've read from you over the years),it is my opinion that you are more intelligent and it was really a compliment,rather than the perception that you implied otherwise.

Granted,a professional stating that Cubase sucks is crude,but I think he was expressing how frustrated he was with it at times and that in his opinion,there are much better alternatives out there.

If I had bought a paid version of Cubase,& he told me to forget about it,then that would be ludicrous & I wouldn't pay him any mind.

As for treating a synth as a normal sound source...if by that you mean recording as audio track by track,I have been doing that in my Presonus DAW.

If the tutorial DVD addresses the specific issues I have been having,then it would be well worth buying & I would be happy to do so,as I am not setting foot on the Motifator forum ever again.

Yeah....I think the whole concept of seamless integration as Yamaha calls it,is an oxymoron,as it implies that it's efficient & simple to set up...sort of a plug and play claim...when the truth is far from this.

On a side note,I am not all familiar with Sonar,but I assumed it was a competitor of Cubase and yet,Sonar is listed in my MOX6 as a Yamaha-specific DAW....interesting.


-Thom

Very wise...  Very very wise.  I'm a life-long student type of guy, and I LOVE learning new things I'm excited about, but it's good to be reminded now and then that I need to go a little easier on myself and just have fun "doing", rather than pull my hair out "learning".  Very wise, indeed, Marc.  Thanks for the well-timed thought.  I'm off to spend some time considering exactly what I want out of my own Cubase workflow...  :)

Ah yes - but it's the music scene: so many ideas, so many opinions! ;) I've been quite frustrated myself with how Logic treated the PC in its final stages but even so I accept that they chose the Mac only route. Roland dropped the development of doing a USB midi driver for 64 bits windows. And all - like your problems - are perfectly ligitimate reasons for getting annoyed, just not for saying that it's not a good DAW.

Exactly - keeping it simple! :)


Tbh - and here's a probably way too strong opinion by myself - I've found such dvd's rarely helpful, though once again that may be due to how I want to work. I mostly set out with some specific questions ('How do I set up a track?', 'How does that Media Bay help me organise loops?', 'How do I use keyboard keys to quickly choose functions?') and use the manuals or the internet to research these. I will sometimes read longer, general instructions but mainly these contain so much extra information about stuff that you'd rarely use (or look up anyway) that I'd forget too much. I'd like to know generally what a software can do, and know where to find specific info back should I need it.


That's strange - I thought Sonar was related to Roland; isn't it a development of Cakewalk?

Always glad to help! :)

(Whoa - two posts one after another calling me intelligent and wise - excuse me if my next few posts do have an annoying amount of smugness ;) )

FWIW, while I'm not actually familiar with any of the kit being mentioned here, I very much take the 'bear of little brain' approach. I try to keep things as simple and direct as possible, and only slowly over time have added extra bits to my kit.

I've no doubt this is less effective than it could be, but it does mean that my major problems are with myself rather than anything inanimate I can shuck the blame on to  ::)

That's strange - I thought Sonar was related to Roland; isn't it a development of Cakewalk?
[/quote]

Marc,

Yes of course,Sonar is a Roland product,but what I meant to say is,in one of the on-screen menus of the MOX,Sonar is listed along with Logic, Digital Performer & of course Cubase,as having exclusive compatibility with the MOX.

I find it particularly odd that although Presonus was designed by some of the same developers from Steinberg,Presonus isn't listed in the MOX6,but Sonar,is. ???


-Thom

Well...back to the salt mines,as I have contacted Steinberg support to request a reactivation license for my Cubase AI5. :-\

Since the MOX does not support Presonus,I can't use the DAW remote functions and I am really disgusted with having to depress the play button on my MOX6's sequencer with one hand,while using my other hand to depress the button on my PC's mouse,hoping like hell I press them down simultaneously,in order to achieve synchronicity. ::)

This is a very archaic way of having to create songs,track by track and it's f**king ridiculous,because I wouldn't have to go through this tedious sh*t all the time,if I could just learn Cubase! >:(

I'm still waiting for Yamaha to release their tutorial DVD and hopefully,the video will be comprehensive enough to help me.If not,then I am going to return my MOX6 and save up for an XF.

I still have 2 weeks to return my MOX6 for a full refund,so all won't be lost.



-Thom

Hi Thom,

Doesn't the MOX have a Mackie HUI or MMC control setting? You might get Cubase to respond to that. You also might be able to use the key commands from Cubase to set START and such to respond to specific MIDI commands, but I don't know what the MOX's transport buttons transmit so I would try the first things I mentioned first.

Hope you get it working.

Marc

Thom,

I'm curious why you think that getting an XF6 (or the full version of Cubase for that matter) will solve your problems?  Given the troubles you're having with the MOX, I fear that getting an XF6 will just make you even more angry...  Neither board is appreciably different in terms of DAW integration.  In fact... they are almost identical...

It seems as if you're banging your head against a wall here.

That all said, my XF8 works just fine with Cubase. 

Marc,

Mackie HUI or MMC control settings?You're speaking in a foreign language.Anyway,I think I might as well direct my efforts to seeing what I can accomplish by learning Cubase.


Thanks,

-Thom

Scott,

I am sure you're aware of the major differences in the number of insert effects and polyphony,between the two boards.If I had an XF,I could make a complete & polished recording,without the use of a computer.

I followed the instructions of the Motifator's articles to the letter,on how to set up the MOX6 with Cubase AI5,but made no progress and unless I get assistance from Steinberg and/or the DVD tutorial,I'm stuck.

Perhaps it doesn't make too much of a difference,but the MOX is a bit different from your XF and more than likely,you're using a different version of Cubase than I am.


-Thom

Hmmm.... interesting,I just read on the Motifator website,that the XF comes with AI5....I would have thought XF owners would have been given an upgrade,considering the huge price difference.

Mackie HUI is a standard protocol, supported by many sequencers. Originally for the Mackie Control hardware controller, it's become a kind of standard and supports such stuff as track levels, starting, stopping and such. Even cheap stuff such as the Behringer BCF2000 supports it, it's become a kind of general remote control between hardware and software and I would be surprised if this version of Cubase wouldn't support it. I would think that the MOX6 would do so as well. MMC - MIDI Machine Control - is an even simpler universal protocol, using MIDI commands to do start/stop functions and such.

There's no such thing as a free lunch  ;D

Perhaps a consideration: before spending money on a full blown sequencer, do have a look at the different options and go for the one that gives you the best feeling towards workflow and methods. Also check on which software provide tutorials. For example: Sonar has some great easy to understand tutorials that realy gets you going. Just a thought...

Moon

Moon,

It had crossed my mind to consider Sonar,since it's one of the DAW's that works exclusively with the MOX6....but that requires me to spend more money.
But yeah...it is far less expensive than buying an XF....but damn,I want an XF anyway! :D


-Thom

Thom, judging on what I allready heard from the Mox, I'm not sure if you need the XF  ;)

If you're planning to keep working with a combined setup (DAW & hardware synth) I would definetly consider to get Sonar X1 Producer or an equivalent studio software.

Moon

Moon,

You've read my mind,as I have been researching Sonar X1 for the last 15 minutes and I very much like what I've seen thus far! :) Sonar seems to have a very simple & efficient layout as my Presonus DAW and I think I will get along just fine with it.

For the same price as Presonus,Sonar X1 has an impressive amount of included sounds....at least twice the amount,from what I've viewed so far. :o
There's also a staggering amount of video tutorials on YouTube,which I am very happy to see. :D

The verdict isn't in quite yet,but it looks as though this might be my next DAW. ;D


-Thom

Not that anyone's asking, but I think you're cruisin' for more heartache getting an XF at this point.  I realize the irony in saying that, as I really love my XF...  But given the trouble you're having, I can't help but think a much better use of your money would be on learning resources for the things you already own.  Or at least getting a DAW that already offers a large and varied amount of educational resources to new users.

In reference to Cubase specifically... although it won't go into installation issues or the specific integration between your MOX and Cubase, I have found a fantastic resource in the tutorials over at Macprovideo.com (http://Macprovideo.com).  Don't be fooled by the name.  It's not just for mac users.  Their Cubase tutorials are very good and they are creating more.  Come to think of it, ALL their tutorials are good.  Their Logic and Ableton tutorials are VERY extensive, as are their great tutorials on Final Cut Pro X.  Even their generic tutorials on MIDI, mixing, recording, and keyboard playing exercises are cool. They work for me anyway.  I find it to be one of the best sites of it's kind.

Just throwing that out there...  Your mileage may vary.  :)

Thanks for the input & I agree that it's more practical to just keep what I have,especially since I am very fond of my MOX6 anyway.I am really leaning towards Sonar X1,especially since I just downloaded a new license for my Cubase AI5 and it came in a format that my PC can't recognize and one that I have never seen before.

Steinberg is really getting on my nerves and the only company that I am more annoyed with is Native Instruments,at this point. ::)

The only good experience I have ever had with free software,is Alchemy and once I have my MOX6 paid off,I really think Sonar would be an ideal investment for me.

Reason 4 and Presonus have been nothing but an absolute joy to install & work with,& I think Sonar is just as well suited,for someone like me.


-Thom

Thom, what is the file format?  If you can give use the file name, such as A15.nnnmaybe someone here can help you.  Remember the most important part of the file name is the .nnn (extension) part.

Mario,

It's some sort of compression and it's nothing like Zip,7-Zip or Rar....it's called Rich Text Format.


-Thom

Thom,
RTF should open in MS Word, or OpenOffice.

 ;)
James

Of course... if it's an encrypted RTF license file, when you open it in Word the best you'll get is gibberish.  I'm sure the file came with information on what it was and where to put it? My point is that you may not NEED to or be able to open it yourself.  The instructions on what to do with the file are at least as important as the file itself.  You may just need to put it in the right spot on your computer so that Cubase AI or Elicenser can find it.

Maybe...  I obviously don't know for sure...

I've contacted Steinberg & asked them to send me the license via a Zip file and if they can't to do this for some reason,then good riddance,to Cubase.
Whether or not my situation with Cubase is sorted out,I still want to eventually get the Sonar X1 Producer,as there are so many more reasons to have it,aside from the fact it is compatible with my MOX6.


Anyhow,thanks for the info,guys. 8)



-Thom

Thom,

Just to be clear... RTF isn't a compression format, it's a document file format.  The license could BE the RTF.  It could be that you just have to put it in the right place for the elicenser to make sense of it.  Have you even tried to open it with Word or Open Office?

I wish I could help more, but I'm using the full version of Cubase 6, which handles licensing differently with a USB dongle.  Cubase AI uses a "soft licenser", and what that generally means is that the license is stored on your computer somewhere rather than an external dongle.  If you're trying to install the license "manually" meaning not using Elicenser to download and install the license automatically, you'll need some computer know-how and some clear instructions on how to do it.  I can't imagine Steinberg is just sending you a raw license file with no guidance on what to do with it.

[edit]Meh...

Never mind...  :)[/edit]

Sorry you're so frustrated, Thom.

Thom, I hope you're happy with Sonar. I'm sorry you think I'm a Cubase fan or supporter - I'm a user, and that's a different thing as I'm quite aware of any problems. I've also used Logic in the past and am using Live (though not so much as a sequencer). I'd like to think that I'd feel the same about someone slagging off Garage Band, or Reaper.

And quite frankly I'm getting tired of being constructive and nuanced when apperently it's ok to get frustrated and lash out. Once again - I do fully appreciate your anger towards what obviously has gone wrong and I accept that you conclude that the software doesn't work as you expect it to, but to call it inferior and saying that it sucks is just not true.

We're trying to keep a positive vibe going here, so please keep it as you did in your excellent monitor reviews (been reading them a lot lately as I'm looking for new monitors) and write a bit more objectively about such matters.

Marc,

I removed the post.

Ultimately,I tried to be fair,while also expressing how much I really dislike Cubase.I'm sorry,but I don't know how to be completely objective about software and leave out my opinions.

I didn't mean to imply that Cubase was inferior in it's capabilities,but simply that Sonar is less complicated and a better value,in my opinion.

I understand that you want me to keep my emotions out of it,but understand that I don't like someone trying to suppress my opinions,because you find them too negative.

I apologize for you feeling insulted by the way I worded things and maybe I'm too passionate about my feelings towards my discontentment towards Cubase,but Cubase & Native Instruments get me emotional.

I don't want this area of the forum to degenerate into a "Motifator" atmosphere,so I'm out...I'm done.I did not want to argue over gear or software and I'm not going to.

I am going to be completely neutral about gear & software and just focus on music only,from here on in.

Thanks,


-Thom

Np... And for what it's worth: Steinberg haven't updated their generic remote controller implentation in ages and its hardly useable. Also, though I'm mostly in 64 bit now, Cubase's own 64 bit wrapper causes big problems for at least one of my VSTi's which I really need and which doesn't have a 64 bit version. Which is particularly annoying as there's a 3rd party one - jbridge - that works perfectly.