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Author Topic: Empires Of Dust  (Read 14568 times)
folderol
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« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2008, 05:50:56 PM »

Well I thought this thread had gone quiet Huh

We started out with the chord progression, then Oren added the guitar. After that we footled about a bit with BPM etc and Oren added the drums.

After that it was all footling Grin
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If you have a poem, I have a tune, and we exchange these, we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
- Will
Oren
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2008, 03:51:04 PM »

...We started out with the chord progression, then Oren added the guitar. After that we footled about a bit with BPM etc and Oren added the drums. After that it was all footling...

Further footling....without drums Grin

* Empires of Dust no drums.mp3 (5934.69 KB - downloaded 191 times.)
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Oren
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2008, 03:55:57 PM »

Now with mix and EQ footled, but drums included.... Kiss

* Empires of Dust Sept 2008.mp3 (5916.33 KB - downloaded 198 times.)
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Wyatt
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2008, 04:11:29 PM »

Thanks Oren..this is really interesting to me.

I still like the drum version the best..and frankly I did expect to, especially
considering that that version was already hard-wired into my head.

What I didn't expect was how beautiful the drumless version is as well.

I can't presume to be objective right now as to a comparison, but I can say
with certainty that if I had only heard the drumless version, I would have
never thought there was anything else needed.

Having two versions is definitely a win-win situation; I love this sweeping
sonic landscape.

Cool

Wyatt
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Oren
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2008, 04:26:13 PM »

...Having two versions is definitely a win-win situation; I love this sweeping sonic landscape...

Thanks for listening, Wyatt. Each of them has a certain charm...

Did you hear what sounds to me like a mid-range "warbling" in the MP3, particularly near the beginning where Will's synth is the only instrument?

I've noticed this in some of my other songs when converted to MP3, and I'm wondering if it stems from the release time I have set for my final limiter in JAMin (Linux mastering application). Default release time for JAmin is 50 milliseconds, but I have it set to 10 milliseconds to achieve maximum responsiveness. Is this release time setting too fast? Could it be causing a "choppy" response in the limiter that creates the faint disturbance in the MP3?

Advice and recommendations gratefully accepted....help! Cheesy

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folderol
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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2008, 07:29:17 PM »

Hmm, and double Hmm. I hadn't noticed this before but it is definitely there, and even more noticable when doing an A/B test against the WAV file. It doesn't seem to happen with the ogg version. I have no real idea as to what to do about this. Would changing the bit-rate make any difference?

P.S.
Have we possibly over-footled? Roll Eyes
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If you have a poem, I have a tune, and we exchange these, we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
- Will
Oren
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« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2008, 10:53:26 PM »

Have we possibly over-footled? Roll Eyes

True, Ogg Vorbis doesn't emphasize the phenomenon the way MP3 does.
Bob (rharv) and I have mulled over the question of an "ideal" bit-rate for MP3, and 160Kbits/sec seems to be the most advantageous combination of small file size and acceptable sound quality. When the source file is righteous, 160Kbits/sec works very well....

As to over-footling, Ardour doesn't actually tamper with the original tracks, it just maps out a combination of automated changes, and applies them each time the files are played back. Then, when the mix is recorded to stereo, the effects, EQ, and levels are included in that track, but all the original material remains unchanged.
Therefore, unfootling is very easy, as is refootling, and retro-footling. Cool, eh?

Unless someone comes up with a recommended number for me, I'll try a re-master with the final limiter set to a release time of 100 milliseconds to see if it smooths things out. Sound reasonable?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 11:00:06 PM by Oren » Logged

Wyatt
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« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2008, 12:37:11 AM »

Wish I could help you with this.

I have often had problems with mp3s, and sometimes it was a *really* gross problem..like for example ruining several bars of a trumpet duet so badly I couldn't recognize it.

..160 fixed most of mine in the past,and seemed pretty optimim for mp3, but when I had to go up to 256 before "Mazatlan" worked at all, (yep..192 didn't fix it either),  I just switched it to .ogg.


Cool

Wyatt
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 02:30:13 AM by Wyatt » Logged

Oren
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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2008, 06:22:40 PM »

Release time of mastering limiter on original wave source file altered to 50 milliseconds...encoded at 160Kbits/sec......

* Empires-50ms.mp3 (5940.82 KB - downloaded 197 times.)
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Oren
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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2008, 06:28:46 PM »

Release time of 100 milliseconds...encoded at 160Kbits/sec... Care to compare Cheesy?

* Empires-100ms.mp3 (5930.1 KB - downloaded 195 times.)
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folderol
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« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2008, 07:53:14 PM »

Have we possibly over-footled? Roll Eyes

True, Ogg Vorbis doesn't emphasize the phenomenon the way MP3 does.
Bob (rharv) and I have mulled over the question of an "ideal" bit-rate for MP3, and 160Kbits/sec seems to be the most advantageous combination of small file size and acceptable sound quality. When the source file is righteous, 160Kbits/sec works very well....

As to over-footling, Ardour doesn't actually tamper with the original tracks, it just maps out a combination of automated changes, and applies them each time the files are played back. Then, when the mix is recorded to stereo, the effects, EQ, and levels are included in that track, but all the original material remains unchanged.
Therefore, unfootling is very easy, as is refootling, and retro-footling. Cool, eh?

Unless someone comes up with a recommended number for me, I'll try a re-master with the final limiter set to a release time of 100 milliseconds to see if it smooths things out. Sound reasonable?
Thanks for these comments. I needed something make me smile Cheesy
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If you have a poem, I have a tune, and we exchange these, we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
- Will
folderol
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« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2008, 08:15:03 PM »

Release time of 100 milliseconds...encoded at 160Kbits/sec... Care to compare Cheesy?
This is very strange, they each sound different, but I can't say which is the better (or worse)

What mp3 encoder are you using? If its lame, try the following command in a terminal window:
lame --longhelp

It is mind boggling what options are availalble Shocked
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If you have a poem, I have a tune, and we exchange these, we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
- Will
Wyatt
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« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2008, 08:40:00 PM »

When I put them side by side and magnify the wave forms, there are
obvious differences, but listening to them repeatedly has not left me
with anything useful to say in contrasting them.

Cool

Wyatt

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Oren
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« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2008, 03:19:33 AM »

Will,
Yes, LAME is the MP3 codec. I'm still not good with the Linux terminal, but that is on my list of open-source chores. May I contact you in the event of an emotional melt-down?
(...looks like you'll have another opportunity to jam with the K-M crew in December wOO ...all is not lost)

Wyatt,
It sounds like the "warble" phenomenon is not a function of limiter release time, because it occurs at approximately the same severity at 10, 50, and 100 milliseconds.

It's time to listen to my mastered file again to see if there is any hint of the phenomenon before MP3 encoding.
Also, I'll give it a go at 256Kbits /sec, just to see if the greater dynamic range will cure it.

Thanks to both of you for listening!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 03:19:49 PM by Oren » Logged

Wyatt
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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2008, 03:31:53 AM »


Wyatt,
It sounds like the "warble" phenomenon is not a function of limiter release time, because it occurs at approximately the same severity at 10, 50, and 100 milliseconds.

I could not discern any substantive difference in quality.

Quote
It's time to listen to my mastered file again to see if there is any hint of the phenomenon before MP3 encoding.
Also, I'll give it a go at 256Kbits /sec, just to see if the greater dynamic range will cure it.

You can scarcely imagine the difference that made for "Mazatlan"..my whole head went on tilt. Yes, it fixed it for me, but if I have to go that high, then I will look for a better solution..ogg did it, and with a smaller file size.

I am sure you will sleuth this one out, and I certainly hope you do. "Empires of Dust" is an archetype, bro.
It got in my head and I hear things differently.  Every now and then that happens. Good to recognize it when it does.

Synergy, baby!

Cool

Wyatt
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