Concerns about Sonar X2

[elwoodblues1969]

Although I am really excited about Sonar X2 from what I've researched,I am equally horrified by some of the Sonar-user's struggles with the various bugs that seem to be inherent with the X2 series.
In fact,some really disturbing sh*t...such as the issues I've experienced with Acoustica Mixcraft 6. 

One KVR member,recently had this to say about Sonar X2 Producer; http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=388404

Of course I realize,that not every Sonar user goes through this,but then...not every Acoustica Mixcraft 6 user went through what I did(despite the fact that I have a powerful PC & that I had done everything possible to resolve my issues,before I discarded that program).

KVR...has some of the most seasoned & experienced PC users I've seen on the internet,which is what really disturbs me...because based on what I've read,Sonar X2 is just as much of a instable train-wreck as the Acoustica...at least for some individuals and the issues don't seem to be related to what type of PC power you're running...so much as Sonar just being an instable program that is very difficult to get under control.

@Mario....care to give your thoughts...please?

[elwoodblues1969]

By the way...the general consensus among Sonar users,is that the reasoning behind Cakewalk's summer sale on their X2 upgrades,is that the X3 version is right around the corner & that people are hopeful that the X3 update will correct all of the bugs.

I think Sonar has been around for at least 20 years...so then...what..Cakewalk can't get their bugs sorted out after all this time?Or is it a matter of the Sonar user's incessant demands for more powerful upgrades,that has Sonar overloaded...resulting in bugs galore?

I have this thought...both Acoustica and Sonar are reasonably priced DAW's with video support capabilities...could this feature be contributing to their instability?

What about Cubase & Digital Performer?They both have video support as well...any instability issues there..I wonder?Is running audio & video in a single DAW,too much for the average PC user with limit budgets?

Does one have to have a $10,000 industrial grade PC,just to run programs like this smoothly?

[elwoodblues1969]

Incidentally,some Sonar users have concluded...that the stability of Sonar,is contingent upon an individual's particular computer system....though no one seems to have it down to a science,nor can they tell specifically,what type of system one needs...as it seems to be a crap-shoot.

With that in mind,I am in the process of re-downloading the demo,on my other PC & upon the installation,I will run the program under the administration &  disable my security programs during the process.

Hopefully upon testing this demo,I will be able to determine whether or not I can use this program without any serious mishaps or to see if this software is usable at all,with my PC set up.

[MarioD]

Hi Thom,

There are some people having a ton of problems with Sonar X2.  After you DL the demo check to make sure that you have X2a.  If not also DL the X2a upgrade; I think you can do that with a demo but I’m not sure.

My experience with Sonar has been a good one but there are some things that I don’t touch.  I let you know them in a second.

Although Cakewalk has been around for ages but when it introduced X1 it was a complete rewrite.  Consequently there were a ton of bugs.  Many have been squashed with X1a,b,c,d, X2 and X2a.

Many are having problems because they don’t know how to use Sonar.  Take the pitch correction V-Vocal for example.  You may not be able to do a whole track at once with it, as many times that will crash Sonar.  Small sections works if you bounce the correction to a track then move onto the next section.  (You will not have to worry about this as V-Vocal does not come with the Essential version. That said some of the potential problems you will not encounter as Essentials doesn’t come with those plugins or synths.)

Also be slow and follow the install directions to a tee.  Many potential problems will be eliminated if you do exactly what the install instructions tell you to do.

Two big problems that you will encounter are automation and take lanes.  Both good ideas but they were half-assed implemented. I do not use either because everyone, including me, is having problems with them.  Fortunately there are work arounds.  You do not need take lanes. You can either punch in and punch out or record takes on new tracks.  You also do not need automation lanes as all you do is to record your automation in the track with sound-on-sound then bounce the track.  Both of these techniques are old school but they work.

There is a ton of information at the Cakewalk forums.  There are also a lot of free how to use Cakewalk videos on their site also.

One final note and that is be sure to look at the manual.  Sonar has a very steep learning curve for a new user.   Check the forums for help but if you don’t read the manual you will get a read the f%%^^ing manual from a couple of old pros.  Also I am here to help.

Good luck and let me know how things are progressing.

Ps an after though. You should get Scott R. Garrigus’s “SonarX2 Power!” book if you really want to get into Sonar.  Every Sonar upgrade I get, which isn’t very many I might add, I get these power books.  They explain everything much better than the manual. 

[elwoodblues1969]

Hey Mario,

As a general & strict rule,I don't ever touch pitch correction tools,so the V-Vocal is a non sequitur for me.

I just installed the demo on my other PC and no problems there.

As for book tutorials,well..with my ADHD,I find reading too tedious...so if I end up purchasing tutorials,it's going to be video instructions(regardless of the cost)...if I run into a brick wall.

Thus far,I set up my midi controller keyboard...but simply trying to add a VST instrument track(the ones included with the download),is ridiculously confusing(as my screenshots below will illustrate).

I'm currently looking through a YouTube tutorial on X2 Producer that was made by a Sonar user(not affiliated with Cakewalk)..but have made no progress in this area and at this point,I think I may have an easier time trying to import 3rd party VST's....but then again(according to the error message)...maybe not anytime soon.

I don't know if I'll have any more sorted out before my copy of X2 Essential gets here...but I think the most helpful thing I can do for myself when I install my purchase,is to contact Sweetwater.com(as they have remote access to my PC) and this has bailed me out of trouble on a couple of occasions with other software.

Thanks for the info,

-Thom   By the way,the double screenshot file,indicates a video screenshot from the tutorial(which is to the right)and then a screenshot from my PC(to the left).

[MarioD]

Like I said Thom Sonar has a very steep learning curve.  I would suggest you go to the Cakewalk site and look at some of their vids first.  They range from the first time user vids to the experienced users.

It will not matter if you use Cakewalk’s VSTis or 3rd party ones the process is the same. Each soft synth needs at least one midi track to run it. Many of the new VSTis can have either up to 16 different midi tracks driving 16 different sounds or a number of different tracks driving the same sounds.

Let’s say the softsynth is the TTS-1.   The following picture will show you the correct procedure.

If your screen doesn’t look like mine then you have a different screen set.  Press the number 2 to get the identical screen set as mine.  Sonar has 10 different screen sets which are just different views of the same information.  This is so that you can have specialized views for different types of work.

 One word of caution, as I have said Sonar is a very in-depth DAW.  In such there are many ways to do the same thing and a ton of things to learn.  If one thinks they can just turn it on and fly then one is terribly mistaken.  Learning Sonar is like learning a new instrument in that you have to either read or view the vids then practice what you have learned.  Thom, I mean no offense by this.  I had a hard time coming to grips with Sonar but now I have it set up so it enhances my workflow.  I can do things very quickly and easily now but it took a while to get here.  I have used Cakewalk’s products for years now and still today I watch the vids or read the books and I’m still learning what Sonar can do.

I hope this helps.

[elwoodblues1969]

Mario,

I am in the process of downloading a Cakewalk video tutorial called; Sonar X2 explained...which is 5 hours & seems like a great deal for $24.95(as compared to $34.95 for the book)..which seems like a ridiculous price for a book,but I suppose the book as more in depth info than that of the videos.
Not long after I paid for this video,I went back to the online store and noticed that just below the download I bought,there's another X2 tutorial called SWA Complete Sonar X2 and not only does it have 4 more hours of video,it's also $5 less!

Hopefully what I purchased will suffice and besides,what I am downloading now is just over a gigabyte in size and the other download is roughly double that size...which could give me problems,because anything over a GB in size,I run the risk of a network timeout or a corrupted file.

All of this tutorial stuff may get expensive over time,because there's a whole library of videos...but I had to go through the same thing when I bought Reason 4(this was my first DAW) and I bought it from Ask Video and that tutorial cost $50!

As for what I had read about some folks claiming that Sonar is not very receptive to 3rd party VST's...well it's pretty much hogwash I think,because depending on who's claims you read on the various forums,each person has a different story.

To put a finer point on it,none of my other DAW's could host some of the TubeOhm's synths,but Sonar is more friendly towards these VST's....I of course,don't have any VST's running as of yet,but at least more Of TubeOhm's stuff is showing up in Sonar(in the VST folder section to the left of the screen).


Thanks again,

-Thom

[MarioD]

Thom,

The only issues I have had with VSTs and VSTis are with some of the 32 bit ones; note I am running a 64bit Win7 Pro system. Many are automatically wrapped with Bitmap (I think that is what Sonar calls it) while J-Bridge wraps a lot others.  But from now on I am only going to DL 64 bit VSTs and VSTis.  I have had no problems with them.

[SLD Music]

One word of caution, as I have said Sonar is a very in-depth DAW.  In such there are many ways to do the same thing and a ton of things to learn.  If one thinks they can just turn it on and fly then one is terribly mistaken.  Learning Sonar is like learning a new instrument in that you have to either read or view the vids then practice what you have learned.  Thom, I mean no offense by this.  I had a hard time coming to grips with Sonar but now I have it set up so it enhances my workflow.  I can do things very quickly and easily now but it took a while to get here.  I have used Cakewalk’s products for years now and still today I watch the vids or read the books and I’m still learning what Sonar can do.

Amen.  As a side note, the same exact thing can be said of Cubase.  It's not just a program you pick up, start messing with, and master in a couple hours, days, weeks, or even months.  It takes study, experimentation, patience, and years to really get a grasp on it.  I've become a regular contributor in the Cubase forums to help people with problems.  It's remarkable how many people's problems are due to lack of understanding of the program, and how quick they are to blame the developer, or assume it's a bug.  Not to say there aren't any bugs.  Of course there are, but there are far fewer than many people think.

[elwoodblues1969]

Wow...what have I gotten myself into?I know that I should ignore most of what I read,with regard to Sonar-user grievances..but the user complaints are incredibly high in number & persistent..both at KVR & the Cakewalk forums...

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=388711

With regard to the Cakewalk forum,all I did..was merely inquire about Sonar's Z3TA+ classic synth & the difference between it,& the latest update and then my thread turns into flaming-user complaint department,where people are venting out their anger over some "stability" issues with the Z3TA+2 synth.

 http://forum.cakewalk.com/Questions-About-Sonar-Z3TA-Synth-m2869728.aspx#2869763

[MarioD]

Thom, as you found out there are some big complainers over there!  If have been spoiled by this site and PGMusic’s site.

My personal experience with SonarX1 Studio, X1a, b, c, and d as well as Sonar X2 Pro and X2a have been very positive.  My personal experience with Z3TA 1, 1.5 and 2 also have been very good, that is no crashes or freezes. Although I am not a heavy user of it I have made some patch mods that worked fine.

As I have noted before Roland/Cakewalk does have some good ideas but the implementation of some are very poor, making them useless IMO.  Lanes are a prefect example.  But as I have said there are work arounds.

I think a lot of problems that people are having are with their computer systems and not Sonar.  Things like a slow CPU, not enough ram, not up to date audio interface, old video drivers or any drivers for that matter, etc are the main causes.  The other main cause is people trying to use those poorly implemented parts of the program. Take and automation lanes don’t work as they should so quit trying to use them!

PS – watch the vids you purchased, practiced what you have learned and you will be fine.  Personally I have yet to ask a question over on their forum.  Way to much Sonar bashing for me!

[elwoodblues1969]

Mario,

The thread I started on KVR(the link in my previous post),was not intended to be anything other than me just informing people of Sonar's August sale on the X2 line(as just a courtesy to others),because I happened to know about the sale before word got out.

I thought perhaps that some folks would be interested,is all...but instead,all hell breaks loose and it turns into an unofficial complaint department for Sonar X2!

On the Cakewalk forum,my thread got hijacked once again & honestly...I sympathize a bit with some people's grievances to a degree,but the outpouring of Sonar bashing is insane.

The funny thing is,that on the Acoustica Mixcraft forum,I was having nothing but problems with Mixcraft and people always wanted to blame my issues on hardware & that I should upgrade my DVD drive..RAM & do crazy modifications to my PC I have never heard of anyone doing before.
People though I was nuts & incredibly naive about computers,because of my complaints and yet,the instability of Mixcraft was so severe,it was beyond fixing...despite the fact that 90% of the time I used it,I was troubleshooting,contacting tech support countless times and spending a great deal of time on the Mixcraft forum.

The typical Mixcraft user,does not have any more PC knowledge than myself(if even that much),& yet,it seems that most Mixcraft users love their DAW's & they're working fine...supposedly.

As I have discovered,with my pathetically arcane,jalopy-of-a-computer that I have.. ..Mixcraft only works well if I had limited myself to just the included VST's of Mixcraft(& avoid the ones with known instability issues)..but once I started to ad VST's like Alchemy & Kontakt,it would crash every time(& yet others claims that they use equally CPU intensive VST's as myself and they have no problems).

Realistically,I don't expect Sonar to be as stable as my Presonus S1 or Reason Daw's..but I also can't imagine any DAW being as unstable as Mixcraft.

[elwoodblues1969]

My personal experience with SonarX1 Studio, X1a, b, c, and d as well as Sonar X2 Pro and X2a have been very positive.  My personal experience with Z3TA 1, 1.5 and 2 also have been very good, that is no crashes or freezes. Although I am not a heavy user of it I have made some patch mods that worked fine.

PS – watch the vids you purchased, practiced what you have learned and you will be fine.  Personally I have yet to ask a question over on their forum.  Way to much Sonar bashing for me!

Just some afterthoughts...I'm not really worried about the Z3TA+ Classic(that comes with my copy of X2 Studio,which is due to arrive tomorrow)..but I am debating on whether or not to eventually buy the $49 upgrade   ...I mean,an extra $49 for basically just an additional $1000 presets?I think I'd rather customize my own,for free.
From what I've observed online,the Z3TA is a very deep synth & I think I will be spending quite a bit of time on it.  

As for working with the demo...well..I uninstalled it 3 days ago,because I didn't want to get too attached to some features that I wouldn't of had(as it were),when I originally placed a pre-order for X2 Essential.
The day before last,I checked Sweetwater's website and discovered that Essential & Studio versions of X2 are half price!Hence the reason I opted for the Studio version.
Since X2 Studio was originally $200,I was wondering why I got stuck with LE versions of Dimension & Rapture?Oh well...if the upgrades are reasonable,I may splurge..one day.
The thing that's a little irritating to me,is that Cakewalk had a sale on Rapture as a plug-in and it was only $20 for the full version.Still though,with what I paid for Studio with Cakewalk's August sale,I can do no wrong,I think.
It just may turn out to be,that eventually upgrading to the X3 version(which seems to be upcoming soon),may be the way to go...so I will hold off on buying any upgrades for X2,until version X3 is released.

[MarioD]

Thom, you are right in saving your money on the Z3TA upgrade.  I bought it and I don’t think it is worth the $49.  You can program the software to get those sounds if you really try.  Personally I just do a few simple mods, I don’t programs original sounds, at least not yet.  Like you said it is a very powerful and programmable softsynth.

I had Studio for over a year.  They offered me an upgrade to Pro for $50 so I upgraded. Studio is just as powerful as Pro and the only differences are the softsynths and Pro Channel.  I am not a big fan of Pro Channel.  I use other effects in the FX bin.

I don’t think that you will care for Dimension.  The Pro version only differs I believe in the number of patches you get.  I find most all of these patches are very weak compared to Kontakt’s sounds, Kontakt’s third party sounds and the other synths that I have.  I believe you will find the same thing.

Rapture is a different story.  I think you will like this one.  Just hold tight on an upgrade as Cakewalk/Roland has had a number of sales lately.  It will probably go on sale again for $20.  I have seen a number of sales repeated lately.

Upgrades are free for Sonar.  Be sure to get the X2a upgrade if yours doesn’t come with it.  It fixes quite a few bugs.

Good luck.

[elwoodblues1969]

Mario,

I browsed through the rather extensive sound libraries of Digital Sound Factory for Dimension & most of them don't really blow my skirt up...except for perhaps,the Vol.5 Orchestral Expansion.

It's difficult to determine the quality of this software,because the instruments are not demonstrated separately...but Digital Sound Factory does give you the option for a full refund,so it seems worth a try.

I love Kontakt's quality in general,but I've never been able to install my Komplete 6 on my other PC,NI support is terrible and although I do have Kontakt 4 on my other PC,it's only because it came with a bass instrument module that I bought from Big Fish Audio & they were wonderful about helping me install it.
Still though...my BASiS module is buggy,expensive & not the most comprehensive bass VST I've worked with,so I don't know if I will ever buy anything more for Kontakt and as I've said in the past,NI's licensing issues have been the most difficult to deal with,in my experience.

Toontrack makes amazing VST modules and aside from drums,they have keys & vocal libraries...so if they ever come out with bass & or orchestral stuff,I won't hesitate to buy from them again,because their product support is very good. 

Aside from the VST module I spoke of,I don't think I will ever be adding additional Cakewalk products to my Sonar...unless of course,they come up with something ground-breaking.


-Thom