Which M-Audio Axiom series?

[elwoodblues1969]

I began my query into the soft-synth world with the objective of finding the perfect medium between price & functionality & after re-reading the article in "CreatedDigitalMusic" which very clearly outlines the pro's & con's between the old & new Axiom series,it seems that the old Axiom series would befit my needs more accordingly,but meeting both my budget & needs.
As the article states,both Axiom boards(old & pro),have a virually identical layout & number of controls,with the main difference of the Pro series having the HyperControl function.
What I know so far about both versions of the Axiom controllers;

Propellerhead has an updated version of Reason 4(v4.0.1),which provides complete compatibilty with the old Axiom series and the old Axiom series comes with Ableton Live Lite-of which I am interested in.
As for the Axiom Pro series,the Pro series is exclusively compatible with Reason,but there is no mention of Ableton compatiblity,as well as there being no mention as to whether or not the Axion Pro controllers come with any audio recording software?!
The Axiom Pro series looks wonderful on paper,with it's HyperControl auto mapping,it's "TruTouch" keybed action & it's additonal weight of 7 lbs.,but the drastic price difference does not seem to justify the additonal features of the Pro version-especially so,since Reason & Ableton are the only platforms I ever plan on using.

-Thom

[Fred S]

Thom I'm really not sure what your trying to get done. I bought an axiom because of a specific need, otherwise I would be perfectly happy using my Yamaha board as my one and only controller. You have a new Korg, right? As its new I'm sure it has decent controller capabilities, both midi and by USB hookup. Why not just use that to get your feet wet. If I were just getting into daw work, the first thing I would do invest in a good host. Most of them come with several very useful synths. Do not waste you time on lite versions. I suggest downloading several trial versions and work your way through; cubebase, sonar, reason etc.  You'll find the things these apps can do will far outweigh anything the axiom pro series can do over the old series. If you haven't worked with a good host before, you will be surprised at how deep they are and what they can do. In other words, a good host will be far more important to you than a fancy board. Hope that helps. Sorry for any typos I'm typing from a dinky iPod screen.

[Oren]

Thom I'm really not sure what your trying to get done.

Yes to whole Fred thing.

 Leave the whole Ableton live thing alone. As shipped by M-Audio, it is very much a trial version, and not worth more than just a glance. I have it - I know. And just because M-Audio and ProTools are now associated, please, don't be tempted to adopt ProTools (in any form) as your DAW. Some of the guys I associate with work in high-end audio, and they are becoming very disillusioned with ProTools and its glitchy performance.

Use one of your Korgs as a MIDI controller, and choose your software carefully. You already have a good controller - the Axiom would be redundant at this time. Once you have advanced keyboard skills and can really tinkle those ivories, then consider a pro-level controller.

Also, be advised regarding M-Audio: the experience will be much like Wyatt is having with Digitech. These folks assume that, seeing as how you're purchasing pro-quality gear, you have a professional-level grasp of the nuances of MIDI hardware and software. Any customer service you may request after purchasing their hardware and its associated software will be sketchy indeed, unless you are able to communicate at an advanced level, and have applied all normal trouble-shooting maneuvers before contacting them.

Think it over, man. You're about to step into the tall grass, and we wouldn't want to see you get lost...

[elwoodblues1969]

Fred,

Thanks for taking the time to write your post,as I have a friend who owns one of those tiny iPod gadgets & the typing is tedious.
To answer your question,this is what I want to get done;
I want the equivalent of my hardware studio's capablities in a pc platform-but additionally,I want super in-depth sound creation..that has a low impact my my CPU & of course,midi sequencing(all of which I will get with Reason 4).I've heard nothing but positive things about Reason 4 & Wyatt has recommended Reason for me,so there is no debate over purchasing Reason.
What I r-e-a-l-l-y want to accomplish,is finding the ideal midi controller & audio software to work with Reason 4.
Using my Korg M50 as a controller would be ideal in general,but with my particular set up,it's not an option,as there is absolutely no spare room on my computer desk for a keyboard any larger than 49 keys.Also,setting up my Korg on a keyboard stand in front of my pc desk is not an option either,as it would block the path of my rolling shelf that has my mouse & keyboard on it.
Besides which,my Korg is part of my hardware set up,which is seperate from my pc set up & I need to keep it as such.
Reason 4 will be my primary music creation platform,but I would like to have the option of adding vocals to my Reason 4 compositions,without having to involve my hardware set up to do this.
That being said,I want a basic audio recording platform without the crazy fancy mess(pitch correction,time stretch etc.,) & I was hoping to find a reasonably priced one,that will work well with Reason 4's Re-Wire function.

Thanks for your advice,

-Thom

[elwoodblues1969]

Oren,

I'll take your word for it about the Pro Tools thing,as I will steer clear of this,but I'm not so sure about staying away from M-Audio controllers altogether....if in fact,M-Audio gear will bring me more trouble than I can handle,what brand of midi controller would you suggest?
I did not have a proffessional-level-grasp of Korg workstations when I got my first keyboard workstation,but I managed to get through the process reasonably well.
Are midi controllers really that much of a nightmare to figure out for newbies?
Besides,I really don't see how learning how to operate my Korg with a pc DAW and then having to re-learn how to use a midi controller of another brand is going to make things any easier,because bottom line,I need to buy a midi controller-exclusively for my pc DAW anyway.
I really just want advice on what would be the ideal controller for me to buy-specifically for Reason 4 & for an audio recording platform as well.
I just wish that pc midi controllers were more universal-but clearly they're not,so I need to make a determination as to what controller would be good for Reason,as that's my main objective.

Thanks,

-Thom

[Fred S]

Using my Korg M50 as a controller would be ideal in general,but with my particular set up,it's not an option,as there is absolutely no spare room on my computer desk for a keyboard any larger than 49 keys.[/color]Also,setting up my Korg on a keyboard stand in front of my pc desk is not an option either,as it would block the path of my rolling shelf that has my mouse & keyboard on it.

That being said,I want a basic audio recording platform without the crazy fancy mess(pitch correction,time stretch etc.,) & I was hoping to find a reasonably priced one,that will work well with Reason 4's Re-Wire function.

Thanks for your advice,

-Thom

Ok Thom, I get it now, you have a space problem. I keep my keyboard and computers in an L shape with my boards on the left. Further, modern boards will allow you to at least access your host's basic functions such as the transport controls from the board. So it works well for me. If you can find a better arrangement, that would be best and hooking your Korg to the computer is easy as one line...simply leave the rest of your hardware setup off.

Anyway, assuming you can't readjust your space, I don't think there is anything wrong with the Axiom boards. Mine is working fine. Basically all these boards have a bunch of sliders and knobs and all good hosts will allow for the assignment of those controls. Some even set it all up automatically, which might be the difference in the pro series (don't know, just guessing). However, don't forget about touch. Since all these boards basically get the job done, I found it more important to me to purchase one that felt good under the fingers. For example, my yamaha board has a great piano touch and the axiom feels most like a Hammond that I could find.

Regarding recording audio, there are several ways to go. The simplist (in my mind at least) is to direct record to your host through your PC's sound card. You need a good sound card if you don't have one. If you don't have one, you'll want to find one that best meets your needs. I have an EMU 1616m; it has all kinds of mic in's line in's, reg outs, balanced outs, two midi ins, etc.. Probably overkill. And I can't recommend it as I don't know enough about audio interfaces to make an intelligent recommendation. For recording however, you want one with good preamps. Regarding pitch correction, time stretch, and the like, you can use PC "plug-ins" (all these programs and softsynths are basically called plug-ins). These programs work directly in your host and don't need to be "re-wired". I've done a lot of direct recording and audio munipulation without using a re-wire configuration....not to say its not handy in certain situations. Now regarding vocal recording, you can also record directly to your host. You can use plug-in's to minipulate the audio in your host or you can use specific preamps on the way in. Since my singing is dreadful, you'll want to talk to the singers in our group to for process and equipment. 

I don't know if this is helpful, perhaps you know all this already. But as Oren mentioned, there's some tall grass in this field. However, mastering this stuff is fun and rewarding.

Lastly, hopefully others will chime in if any of my info is misleading.

[Oren]

I'm not so sure about staying away from M-Audio controllers altogether....if in fact,M-Audio gear will bring me more trouble than I can handle,what brand of midi controller would you suggest?
I did not have a professional-level-grasp of Korg workstations when I got my first keyboard workstation,but I managed to get through the process reasonably well.
Are midi controllers really that much of a nightmare to figure out for newbies?
Besides,I really don't see how learning how to operate my Korg with a pc DAW and then having to re-learn how to use a midi controller of another brand is going to make things any easier,because bottom line,I need to buy a midi controller-exclusively for my pc DAW anyway.

Well, if you have to have a separate midi controller keyboard, an M-Audio product would probably be a good choice... especially since Fred and Marc JX8P use them.

My only concern is that when you decide in favour of pro-audio gear, nobody at customer service will hold your hand when it comes time to troubleshoot its performance. They assume a level of competence and technical familiarity that many of us don't have (but all of us can learn).

When you upgrade to a pro-audio soundcard, both EMU and M-Audio would be good choices, but once again - do your homework and educate yourself on the nuances of the cards before you buy one. The same will be true of your pro-audio mic pre-amp, when you want to record vocals (or you could just use one of those cute little Zoom H2 USB devices  ).

[elwoodblues1969]

Fred,

One of my main concerns about midi controllers-is indeed,finding one with a good key-bed feel,which is one of the reasons why I am considering the new Axiom Pro series over the old Axiom series.....keyboards are all I know,as I have never dabbled with any other instrument.Furthermore,since I am a programmer/live player that creates entire songs using just a keyboard...good key-bed action is everything to me....which is another reason why I can't use my Korg as a controller,because the key-bed on my Korg M50 is very disappointing....usable,but still not very effective & certainly not ideal for use with a pc DAW.
At this point,I'll will have to wait a while to make a firm choice on a midi controller,because the new Axiom Pro series will not be available until early April,so I will have to wait until then to try one out for myself in a store,as well as read up on user reviews on the net,to see if this Auto Mapping technology is really useful & worth the extra money.
As for the sound card/audio interface thing....I'm really confused.I'm not sure if you're familiar with Propellerhead Reason 4,but it's strictly a midi sequencing workstation synth/sampler,with no direct audio recording...at least not without the Re-Wire function.As far as I know at this point,I cannot integrate my vocals with Reason 4,without the Re-Wire function.......that being said,I am wondering if there would be any compatibility issues with Reason's Re-Wire & and any particular host?

As far as pitch correction & time stretching are concerned...like I had said in my initial post,I don't need to pay extra for any hosts that offer these functions,because my philosophy is that if I cannot achieve reasonably correct pitch & timing in my vocals naturally,then I just soon not sing & add vocals to my music at all-period.

Thanks again for your advice-much appreciated!

-Thom

[elwoodblues1969]

Oren,

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I am looking to be spoon fed about pc gear,& I suppose I have-at times,been overly dependent on folks on this forum,because I do have a tendency to become easily frustrated with computers,but I don't think it's necessary for you to be too concerned about how I will adapt to M-Audio gear(the concern is appreciated though) .

Like M-Audio,Korg is also one of those companies that assumes a certain level of experience in a keyboard user,which is why their user manuals outline the product's functions,rather than explaining how to use these functions....although in recent years,Korg has included basic instructional videos with their keyboards,but I've never needed them.
M-Audio does have a knowledge base on their website,as well as a forum and that should be enough to assist me,but if not,there are gear forums all over the internet if I get stuck....so I am not going to make a purchase based on who has the best customer support,because-for the most part,this does not exist anywhere-anyway(I have however,read good things about Propellerhead providing good compatibilty support with midi controllers & just good product support in general).

I am beginning to get the distinct impression,that no matter how I approach this "tall grass" region in the world of music creation & regardless of whatever choice I make product-wise,it's going to be a very challenging & at times,a very arduous experience,but like Fred mentioned,it will be a rewarding & fun one in the long run and it's about time I stepped up to the plate to go toe to toe with the computer world & forge myself into a more well rounded musician.

Your advice & input is appreciated as always & I thank you kindly!

-Thom

[Oren]

I am beginning to get the distinct impression,that no matter how I approach this "tall grass" region in the world of music creation & regardless of whatever choice I make product-wise,it's going to be a very challenging & at times,a very arduous experience,but like Fred mentioned,it will be a rewarding & fun one in the long run and it's about time I stepped up to the plate to go toe to toe with the computer world & forge myself into a more well rounded musician.

Well said, hoser!

In the digital music field, perseverance and a dedication to the craft will get the job done, every time.
You got the chops to excell in this area - I've seen them in action.
You'll take to pro-audio gear like a duck to water. 

[Fred S]

Thom, I don't know anything about reason...I just assumed it allowed direct recording as most do. Actually, I am surprised by that! You've researched the other major hosts that do? It just seems that re-wire would be an unneeded additional hassel. That said, it sounds like you know what you want and what your doing.

[elwoodblues1969]

Oren,

Thanks for the vote of confidence friend!

Fred,

Wyatt was aware that I mostly do instrumentals & that I sometimes do vocals-which has always been my program,& he also took into consideration that I do not have a especially powerful computer...so Reason was the obvious choice & I was sold!
I think that Propellerhead's software design is utterly a brilliant one,because leaving out direct audio recording from the same program,makes the Reason program a very stable one,as it will not drain my CPU's power and adding a Re-Wire function is simply genious move on Propellerhead's part,as I will have the option of expanding to a full blown pc studio.
I certainly do not have any plans to ever add VST plug-ins to whatever audio recording software I end up with,because I will certainly crash my computer that way..at some point in time and I just don't see any reason for going beyond the sounds of Reason 4,because as I see it,Reason in of itself will provide a lifetime of sound creation possibilities(not to mention all of the upgrades that are available).

At this point,I don't know what audio program I'll end up with,but by the time I get my head around Reason's functions & when I have sufficient funds,I'll most likely know what audio recording program to buy(hopefully).

-Thom

[Fred S]

Again Thom, it appears you have a good grasp on what your trying to do. I'm just trying to help! You should know however, that audio tracks are, overall, less CPU intensive than sound creation programs. Obviously, the power of your PC will limit what you can do. However, my guess is that the Reason sound creation programs are basically softsynths, in other words, plug-ins that are packaged with Reason. Your PC will limit the number of these you can use in any project. To explain this differently, most hosts will have a function to freeze these "synth" tracks, in effect, rendering them audio files to help reduce the load on your CPU. Hope this makes sense and why it surprises me that Reason does not allow direct recording. Btw, most of the popular hosts do have re-wire ability and direct recording.

This is sort of amusing in that it sounds like I'm being instructive and a little argumentative. Not at all my intention. Good luck with your endeavor!

[elwoodblues1969]

Fred,

I know full well,that your trying to help & I do appreciate it very much. Since you were not familiar with Reason,I just thought I would explain why I want it over other programs-that's all.

Perhaps there are other software synths out there that I would like better than Reason,but I do like Reason's Thor synthesizer,it's sampler,it's factory presets & alot of the Refill packages for it.

Besides all that,there is just entirely too many programs out there to shop for & I don't want to drive myself crazy by trying to find the absolute ultimate of synth sounds & such....& it seems like each & every program out there has it's exceptional features that no one else has,but like I had said,I basically want to keep things on a small to medium scale.
By the way,I never interpreted our postings back & forth as being an argument,but us just merely having a friendly discussion...& if you felt as though it was a dispute,then I'm sorry you got that impression.
You might say that we were ironing things out to come to an understanding,but I never thought of you as being irritating or anything & I hope you don't feel that way towards me either.

Nice chatting with you and thanks,

-Thom

[Oren]

As for audio, Thom, you already have Audacity