Kara-Moon Forum

Since we now a have a couple of members with a LINUX DAW, i was thinking that it was a good idea, to have some overview of the actual situation.

Let's start with an overview of the win tools with the linux equivalent, feel free to complete this  ;D

MIDI sequencer
Equivalent of Cubase, Sonar,....
Linux : Rosegarden (http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/)
A midi sequencer that has all the features of a modern midi sequencer

Audio DAW
Equivalent of Pro Tools,....
Linux : Ardour (http://ardour.org/)
Full fledged audio daw in ongoing developpement, lack a good manual. Only manual that I'm aware off is the online ?
Allso : Audacity which is multi platform
Audacity is an audio editor that is highly underestamed by people that don't know it.

Integrated MIDI & Audio DAW
Equivalent of Powertracks,....
Linux : Energy XT Linux version (www.energy-xt.com)
I think this is the only midi&audio on linux at the moment, a shame it's not stable at the moment.

Music Creation tools
Equivalent of Band in a Box, Jammer Pro,...
Linux : MMA (http://www.mellowood.ca/mma/)
MMA is at least as powerfull as the windows tools, in some domains it's even more powerfull since the definition of the styles is more detailed.
But you'll have to learn the text interface !

Live setup tools & modular studios
Equivalent of  Forte Brainspawn, Energy XT, Usine,...
Linux : The only equivalent I know of is the Linux version of Energy XT ?
Again it's not stable yet and there are a lot of live features from the win 1.4 version that are not implemented yet in the linux version.

Trackers
Equivalent of Buzz, Renoise,....
Linux : Trackers are very well represented in the Linux domain. Milytracker amongst others are multi-platform and in continuous development on both platforms. Renoise announced allso a linux version which will be available very soon now, propably in january even.
( http://www.milkytracker.net/ , http://www.renoise.com )

In what domain do Linux users still have problems ?
Mainly in connectivity of hardware...
1. Most manufactors don't deliver Linux drivers for there hardware (soundcards, keyboards,...)
Meaning that users have to carefully choose what hardware they use.
2. Some hardware that needs software to work or to be configured can only be used on win.
Examples : Clavia products which needs software to be programmed (editor is only available on win), same goes for ex. Virus TI

Allso in software there are still a couple of problems
- Lack of good vsti integration. This limits the amount of virtual instruments usuable on Linux. Some good commercial virtual instruments simply don't work on linux (ex : Garitan Personal Orchestra)
- Lack of good vst integration. On Linux there are the famous LADSPA plug but... well there not that easy to use and they don't have a graphical GUI
 
Feel free to add your personnal observations

k
 

Update
The linux version of Renoise is available now on www.renoise.com

k

Kara,

This is LARGE :o

I've heard what Alex (beatslaughter) can do with Renoise, and what Will (folderol) can do with ZynAddSubFX/Rosegarden.

I think a person who moves up to Linux is presented with a staggering array of new possibilities, and needs to become selective. A small kit of carefully selected interactive tools that suits the personality of the artist and his/her compositional style is what will ultimately allow the creative juices to flow.

My question: With all these excellent programs being made available in Linux....if they don't interact with JACK, what's the point?
...............Audacity is not a JACK client, nor are Renoise, Reaper, or MMA.
...............JACK is like the ASIO/MIDI of Linux - if the music software we are considering will not interact with the principle most outstanding feature of Linux digital audio, should they really be considered viable?

Oren.

2 quick answers Oren

Renoise on Linux IS a jack client  ;)

MMA is a midi generating program, so doesn't need jack
The difference between BIAB and MMA :
BIAB generates internaly his song and then sends out the midi (in allmost realtime) to what you want, VCS Dxi as an example.
MMA does the same thing but simply generates a midi file, which you then load up in your sequencer

k

Thanks, Kara!

So, more choices.... I think I feel my head going numb :'(

Hmmm.

Which version of Audacity?

The one I have here is quite happy to chat with jack :)

Incidentally, is there a drum tracker like hydrogen available for Windows?

Also what about an in-line processor - aka Jamin. This has a 3 band compressor, 30 band equaliser and final stage limiter. As it is a true Jack client you can run multiple instances, each with different settings (all of which can be saved for repeat performances).

On a slight downside. There is still a longstanding bug in Rosegarden where occasionally after a session of heavy editing it can suddenly lose sync and go galloping away. There are two cures. One is to just leave it till it settles down again, the other is to save the work then close and restart the sequencer. I go for the latter just to be safe.

A music related application is EasyTag which will enable you to set the ID tags of both ogg and mp3 files. I would expect there is something like that in the Windows domain, but don't know what.

Will,

Audacity, as included by Ubuntu Studio, tends to trigger x-runs when no other app will. There is likely a remedy, but my direction is to just bite the bullet and learn Ardour.

I haven't scoped the whole picture yet, but I'm hoping Ardour will sequence ZynAddSubFX (along with Hydrogen), so I won't have to learn Rosegarden. Or will Rosegarden be a necessary component?
Ardour is probably at least as good as Audacity as an audio editor, and JAMin will be my mastering tool.
I'm prepared to learn Q-synth if for any reason I want different sounds than Zyn has to offer. The whole idea is to assemble a backing band for my guitar and (ahem..) vocals :D Sound at all realistic?

Yes, I use EasyTag, and it does a lovely job.

I've worked with a number of drum sequencers over the years, both hardware and software in Windoze, and Hydrogen is proving the equal of the best of them (although I have yet to sequence a project in swing/syncopated/shuffle time). 

Oren,

If you use Audacity alone, you don't have  have to route trough jack, you could use it just with alsa...
Still, on my config i have no x-runs with jack (see other thread) at 5.8 msec of latency.

But i discovered something odd. It looks like an audacity project created on win and then loaded in linux, isn't completly compatible ??? It loaded fine and the tracks where visualy alligned, but playback wasn't !!
Importing the tracks one by one solved the problem, strange...


If you want to use midi sequencing, you'll have to dive in Rosegarden, ardour is audio only. It is WAY more advanced then audacity, it is actually a protools clone.

k

Hmmm. Don't see any x-runs here with audacity.

As Kara said, Ardour doesn't send MIDI messages. It can send transport 'triggers' via Jack so can start and stop Hydrogen, and erm, Rosegarden :)

Qsynth is very easy to use. It is simply a soundfont player. Soundfonts need to be the .sf2 format. It comes with a few default ones (can't remember which). One of the best known free ones is FluidR3-GM but this comes in at a whooping 142MB. If you can't find it let me know and I'll send it to you.

P.S.

When you have complete mastery of Ardour you can teach all of us.

... next week will do ;D

Oren,
Do you know this tutorial : http://hydrogen-music.org/content/tutorial/tutorial_en.html
Excelent start, shows you how to create a complete song

k

Thanks, Kara!

I'll use that.
Always wanted to be a drummer, but didn't seem to have the co-ordination. The percussion sequencer is the perfect solution to this dilema, because the drums get played the way I hear them - without all the fumbling and cursing that would ensue.

Oren.

It is rather good. I hadn't noticed that one myself!

Will,

The version of Audacity that ships with Ubuntu Studio is 1.3.3
I have a real affinity for Audacity, and I'd like to get it working as a JACK client on the new computer - downloading version 1.3.4 may be of some help....

Presently, when I attempt to bring up Audacity, it triggers an immediate x-run in JACK, and Audacity will not load.
Turn off JACK, and Audacity will load very nicely, perform normally, and interface with ALSA and my Audiophile 2496 card.  ???

Oren,

I have allso 1.3.3 and it works perfectly happy with jack   ???
Be sure that in the settings of audacity you have the sample rate as in the settings of your jack control panel.
If they aren't the same, you're in trouble  :o
Could this be your problem ?

k

Kara,

I'll check..... :)

As far as the selection of Linux tools for digital audio work is concerned, my Athlon/Asus machine with Ubuntu Studio as the operating system tends to favour the more full-featured offerings.
Ardour, Rosegarden, Jamin, ZynAddSubFX, and Hydrogen will interface reliably with JACK and work together seamlessly in all the various possible combinations. These are the applications I'll use for writing, sound synthesis, audio manipulation, mixing, and mastering.

The other (less capable) applications seem to have a funkier vibe and are more interesting to me, but their performance, at least on Ubuntu Studio, is quirky and unreliable, particularly when used in combination with JACK.

What I need to find now is: 1. a tool that will measure the RMS levels of a recording (Meterbridge will 
                                                not do this)               
                                                 
                                      2. an application that will convert audio files from/to the various formats the
                                                    way winLAME does in Windows.

Converting audio formats under linux is mainly a question of having the codecs installed on your machine for the different formats.
Once you have those, a couple of scripts can help you
Here you have some examples : http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Audio_conversion

k

@Oren
What do you mean by 'measure' and what do you mean by 'RMS' ?

Meterbridge has quite a number of different display options. The one I use is VU, which as it suggests give a very good approximation of real analog VU meters. You can also send it a 'sensitivity' value to change what it regards as 0dB.

RMS is a term I normally associate with wattage output to speakers, and have never encountered its use in audio production until Martin and rharv began using it as a measure of functional "loudness" in a mastered audio file.

Being old-school, I just boost the levels until sound degradation occurs, then back off a notch. But I can't talk numbers with these technically advanced dudes - until I get me a tried-and-true RMS meter.

 ???

Ah yes. I think R.M.S. in audio terms is often used interchangably with VU (volume units). In theory you can't have an RMS value for a varying amplitude signal :) If I remember my electronics correctly VU measurement systems were developed to get a mean figure that corresponds to the loudness. If a maximum non-clipping signal is referenced as 0dB then you should be able to get relative RMS values from that.


... of course it's quite possible the other guys are talking about something completely different ;)

The exact description of RMS is : The RMS term expresses what value an existing AC-signal should have - had it been a DC-signal - to develop the same amount of energy as the DC-signal would for the given configuration. In other words, the RMS value is a special kind of mathematical average value which is directly related to the energy contents of the sound.

So, basicly when you use a compressor on your tracks, you're not only handling the peak levels of your track but you're allso augmenting the RMS of the track.
Why are compressors so popular in modern music ?
The perceived loudness is a function of the frequency and the sound level, but also a function of the sound duration. Sounds of short duration are perceived to be of a lower level than steady continuous sound of the same level.
Now there are 2 wyas of express this.
1. The LEQ : to keep it simple and not playing with maths, the LEQ is the linear average of the measured levels.
2. The RMS : RMS value expresses a weighted average where more recent events have more weight than older events.

As you can see , they express allmost the same thing but in a different way. When I explain to non-musician I allways describe it as, the LEQ is what you hear, the RMS is what you feel...




k

Thanks Kara! Sounds about right  ;D

Now for a meter in Linux that will measure RMS so I can communicate a number to my more technically adept brothers and sisters. I'm sure one will show up eventually... ???

"Sound Converter" is the all-in-one Linux audio file format converter.
 Reads all formats. Writes .wav .flac .ogg .mp3 - constant bit-rate and variable bit-rate.

http://soundconverter.berlios.de/              c'est ca ;)

A litle link to the side, perhaps  ;)

k

Good news!

Audacity will work effectively in Ubuntu studio in two ways:
...........with JACK turned off, it interfaces with ALSA nicely
...........or with JACK's realtime mode switched off.

Because Audacity was designed as a cross-platform tool, its JACK connection must be through a device called the "portaudio-v19" interface, and is consequently not a full-featured JACK client.

It's a pleasure to have Audacity back in service because it's the only open-source software with which I'm really familiar.

Good News Oren  8)

I've updates my system yesterday to the latest release of Debian, called 'Etch' or version 4.0r3. The update went smooth with out any problem.
On application level there are no big updates but there is a new alsa and jack package included.
I've noticed that with the new version, jack with freebob and my m-audio firewire box takes 5% less CPU ! Propably due at optimisation they've done.

Since I'm completly up to date and operational, it's 'end of technology' and 'back to music' now  ;D

k

Kara,

Good job of the Linux O/S and DAW.

I'm hoping Ubuntu will use the  Debian "Etch" version to include the new ALSA and JACK package in an upgrade to the current release "Gutsy Gibbon".

In many ways the Linux audio system reminds me of Buzz Machines, with JACK/ALSA being the "Master", and all of the applications being the "machines". Anything done to improve JACK/ALSA will enhance the performance of all the applications.

Looking forward to your next song,

Oren.

I'm glad to hear things are smoothing out some for you.

You really took on something here. Keep up the good work.

Wyatt

Well, to upgrade to Etch, you'll have to modify the package resource of synaptic.
I guess that it is set to ubuntu at the moment like mine was set to 64studio.
Ubuntu, 64 studio and a couple of other distros decide themself when they integrate the new debian modules. 64studio for example is at the moment been frozen at version 2.0.
By changing the repository for the package, you actually accept to upgrade to the latest official debian version, which is the core of a lot of other distros.

The choice is not without risk as explained on the debian site.
SInce i have a good backup of a working system, I decided to take the risk, and it went without any problems :D

and BTW we are working on that new song :D

k

The only thing you really need to watch out for when using the etch repositories is to make sure you don't upgrade the kernel with a non-RT one :-[

Very true, good remark Will
I forget to mention that

k

Those Etch repositories seem a step further than I want to go in keeping Linux up to date. I'll let Ubuntu decide how and when they want to integrate the new developments, and learn to use the applications within the framework they provide.
I realize now that 64Studio is a superior digital audio distribution, but I'm hoping Ubuntu will catch up once they've had some time to work with JACK and the various software packages. Over-all I'm very happy with the experience of working with digital audio in Linux, and the operating system seems efficient and very dependable  :)

I am going to have to bookmark this thread. 

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Wyatt

It would be interesting to discuss some upgrade strategies....

When should you upgrade and when not ?

An interesting question... At the moment I have a perfectly working system and it is by default not connected to the internet, network services are even shutdown on my system, i have to start them manually. I suppose I could freeze that system and use it for the next 5 years without updating ?
I actually see only one reason to make an update... that would be a new realtime kernel wich is again more optimised...

On the other hand, I prepared my setup and setup strategie :)
I have my laptop as testmachine. I can allways upgrade the laptop, test the new version and see what happens. After that I can decide to upgrade or not my production daw.

What are you opinions on that matter ?

k

I think you've nailed this fairly well Kara,

My office machine is 'net facing so I usually check for upgrades every weekend. The DAW only gets occasional upgrades, and then usually for specific packages, like upgrading Rosegarden to V1.6 - a great improvement.

I also use the office machine as a test bed, knowing that if it should crash and burn I can use the DAW (as I had to do when recently when the PSU killed everything).

It's much harder for anyone who only has one machine, but that would be true whatever OS you use.