Kara-Moon Forum

Hi y'all,

Kara posed an interesting question:

Do we spend so much time on our production techniques that our music suffers?
..and do the listeners care that much about the production or do they just want to like the song?


This kind of opens the door for some other questions as well, that many of us have wrestled with, and I for one would like to hear your thoughts, and also how do you look at your music..is it your art?..is it your hobby?..do you have plans either now or in the future to sell your music?


Wyatt

Interesting subject.

I'm all for content over style. I hear some tracks with fantastic production quality, but boring music. I would rather have a great track with poor production because that's something that can be sorted later on anyway.

I don't really do anything complicated with my own tracks, i just keep things as simple as possible. If i was going to use a track on a cd then i would spend more time on the production.

With the advent of the ipod and other similar devices, listeners expectations in the sound quality department have definitely dropped significantly i'd say.  Generations of people will grow up not knowing or caring what a good hi-fi can sound like because they will only listen on their mp3 players.

I'm still a suporter of CDs and Vinyl records because a download can never replace owning a solid,tangible object with artwork and sleevenotes, not to mention the superior sound quality.

As to my own music, it's nothing more than a hobby, but i do like to put out CD's for the above mentioned reasons. I do look on it as art even though i class myself as a non-musician.

+1..I agree..for me it is finding the core.


..I had to learn that the hard way..my initial efforts fell apart because I was trying to make something larger than my abilities..larger than necessary.


..sadly true..in so many areas quality has been displced by convenience, impatience, or profits.


..now you make me happy..I was hoping I wasn't the only one. ;D


..I agree with you. I have listened to your music. It is art..and there is right here at Kara-Moon, an enormous collection of talent..an enormous collection of the art of music..to find this much in one place has surprised me a lot..and I am usually not that easy to surprise.

I have heard this question, "What is art?" debated by art students until you could get blue in the ears..essentially art is something new..beautiful or terrible it communicates feeling if it is to be remembered, and the artist is the one who shows us something we never saw/heard before..

Thank you blipp, for so many insightful comments.

Wyatt

I think that's quite possible.  Engineering is an art in itself.  I would rather just play than produce, but it's all so much fun!!!



I think they want both, if they can get them.


Music was... & hopefully will again be my life. To me a hobby is something that you do.  An artist is something you are.


I would love to sell my music.  Not for the money, but to keep score of how many like it.  If enough do, I could tour again.  Playing live is my passion.  When I feel my playing is at the proper level and production (probably by a pro) is right, I intend to.


Mick
www.mickemery.com (http://www.mickemery.com)

This a very interesting subject, so I hope others will join the discussion.

For me the most important is the music. Basically because my miss and I are both musicians. And also because (allmost) everything we do in the studio is in function of our live acts.
Playing live, we have learned something. People want to amuse themselves and they don't care if that piano sound you use is just a gm piano our a $$$ 5 GB acoustic piano library. That can sound a bit extreme as a statement but I've made the experience...
<STORY>
A couple of years ago we where on holiday with our camper on a camping facility. Of course we allways have a minimum of music gear with us, because we allways play together, even for fun. A certain afternoon, we where rehearsing outside a couple of tunes and we had very fast an audience :) Following that the rumour spread around and the owner of the facility came to ask us if we couldn't do an improvised dancing evening for them, they where even willing to pay for it.
The problem was that I only had a limited set of material with me. I had my laptop with a collection of midi backing tracks, my EZAG midi guitar and the lady had here WX11 with the VL70m and here voice of course. Playing the midi backing tracks trough the internal MS wavetable synth of my laptop wasn't an option because of the bad quality of the integrated soundcard of the laptop. So, I send the backing tracks to my EZAG guitar, who has a standard Yamaha OPL soundcard, I could play bass at the same time, still using the internal sound of the Yamaha and my lady could play here wx and sing. Everything was send to the mixing desk of the entertainment room and we where lucky that it had an inbuilt fx section, so we had reverb.
As you see a bare minimum setup !
Well we played the whole night and let people dance and amuse themself until early in the morning.
<End of story>
This is a good example to proof my statement. If the swing is in the act and people amuse themselves, you've got a winner.

It is also the reason that we created this forum and called it the music auditorium. When we started here, we knew there where allready a lot of forums that concentrate on technology, kvr just one example...
But we wanted a forum that talks about the music you make, let you collaborate with other musicians and get comments on your MUSIC, and not so much about technology. Alltough that some inside comments and tips & tricks are allways welcome  8)

I myself was just tired to see, on very good songs, just one comment as in 'the drums could use a little bit more reverb...' ???
I know that not everybody will agree with me, but honestly who cares about the reverb on the drums. That guy just made a great song, very beautiful and great arrangement, post it and get a response 'more reverb on the drums' ::).
Part of my point is propably that I'm not the youngest... i've started recording on a 4track tascam with cassettes  :D and we where having fun and where proud of what we did.

So to me it's all about the music. For me, a song has to tell a story trough the composition and the performance of an artist. An I have a hard time to listen to songs with only 2 or 3 notes in it and 50 filter sweeps or what so ever  ???
Which doesn' mean that I don't like electronic music as long as it is well made and it tells his story, and I'm very glad we have very good electronic artists here.

This (long) explication doesn't mean that I'm not interested in production. As proof, I did an official sound engineer course and have my proper studio. At the moment I'm doing the production of CD for a Canadian artist which will be released as charity CD. But the main thing I've learned in that course was that in a home studio you can create 'good' demo material, but if you plan to release that next $$$ hit, well you'll need a professional studio and a mastering studio.

So, my statement is, if you are a musician, concentrate on the music  8)

Feel free to not agree, this isn't a forum statement , only my personal opinion

Well, its pretty simple for me. They are seperate processes. The music is first. Once  satisfied with the comp, you can work on the production. I find that if I try to mix them to early, I lose the energy flow and feeling to write. Playing, writing, mixing, production...I think they are all art and all require your best effort for a good result.

Production is not where my strenghts lie, but I try.

Mostly listeners want to hear the song, but production technique does play a part in that, even on an ipod. But, really, forget the ipod stuff....are you happy with what you've done and how it sounds?

Its my passion. Currently I'm in to improving my playing skills. When that passes a little, I'll be in to writing again.

I have no plans to ever sell my music. I do hope, like all of us here however, that folks like listening to it. I'd be kidding myself if I didn't. I'll probably give it away at some point and hope folks will want it!

And, I'm with Blipp on the CD/vinyl thing. It takes up a space in our universe and becomes something. That little tiny spot on the ipod drive is just not enough for me ::) ;D

Great comments..I have particulary enjoyed them.

@Mick..interesting what you said about hobby is just something you do..artist is something you are. I have separated amateur from professional, simply as to whether you earn your living at it or not..but that can be confusing without including the respect I have for amateur..it means lover..I like your distinction, hobby does have kind if a diminishing connotation.

@kara..thanks for the story..I was feeling that you had an interesting viewpoint on this when you posted the question..It made me remember back when I used to perform..yes, the audience made a big difference, and I can understand why some folks really like to perform..
..I like your emphasis on the song, too..that's what people feel.

..for me something has happened very recently..my production work is starting to feel like making music too..as much as the instrument..maybe it sounds wierd when I say it out loud, but it does feel like that to me..at first I was just grateful to be able to record a song because then it was permanent..now the process is becoming more part of me.

@Fred..I relate..a year and a half ago I went out to get a guitar..after being away from it for 12-15 years..[I hate to count it up, so I don't]..so I spent a year seeing if I could get my skills back..took on a project that gave me some production experience..helped jumpstart me a little in recording my own music.

I will be looking forward to getting a chance to hear your music.


I appreciate so many thoughful comments.

Wyatt

Hey Wyatt, this is the last one completed in case you want to listen (part #7 of a project I hope to complete some day ::)). Martin did the vocals and guitar, so just his work alone on the tune makes it worth a listen IMO!!

http://www.graybeardmusic.com/friends/Celestine%3b%20Part%207%3b%20For%20Now.mp3

Fred..thanks for sharing that..its really cool..you guys are makin my ears glow..I think you make a good team and you both have it goin on, as they say..congratulations and many returns on this series.

Wyatt

I've been playing music since I was twelve. Started on the drums but switched to the guitar soon after. When I was still at school I would play guitar with a friend. We would do blues songs by Ry Cooder but also original stuff by Robert Johnson, Blind Blake and the likes. I would order tuiton books and tapes by Stefan Grossman from New York. We didn't care a lot for pop music at the time (especially chart music; I remember The Sweet, Mud and Slade) though we did play songs by The Beatles, The Band and Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.
In the eighties I had my own band playing original material. We managed to be a support for Tears for Fears. But somehow the thing never got off the ground. Later on I became professional and played in a coverband touring Europe. After a while though I started hating it and longed to be creative again and to play my own songs. So I decided to quit and start composing again. In the meantime I got a regular job. I found my composing skills needed to improve as well as my vocal skills. If I look back now over the years I can safely say that both skills have indeed improved and matured in a major way. An important factor has been my membership of the late Auditorium and of course the present Kara-Moon site. I've had some tremendous feedback from you guys for which I can't thank you enough. This has motivated me to keep pushing myself and not to be easily satisfied with the results of my recordings.

So to get back to Blipp's qoute. Music is not a hobby for me it's a way of life. If it's art? Well that's for others to decide.

Do we focus too much on technique instead of the songs?

In my book the song and the performance come first. Since most of us are doing everything by ourselves it has become mandatory to pick up on mixing and mastering techniques. So yes it has become important to be somewhat knowledgable about this area of music production but you shouldn't kid yourself in believing you can attain professional standards all by yourself. You can get close, yes but is it really necessary?

What is my aim at the moment?

I'm not striving to be a recording artist. My aim at the moment is to pitch songs to recording companies and music publishers purely as a songwriter. I've been doing this for about a year now not very intensive since I still had doubts about the quality of my recordings. I do intend to profile myself more in this area this year and see what it brings.

To get back to Blipp's qoute again. You understimate yourself if you call yourself a non-musician. I think the quality of your music is outstanding and it deserves to be released.

Martin

I pretty much agree with your point of view Martin.
Seeing your old standards (Slade, Mud,...) I actually think that we have about the same age  ???
And been a support for Tears for Fears was quite a achievement at that time  8)

Those discusions are very interesting  8)

I didn't know that about you, Martin, but it does help explain why we work well together. Turn back the clock another 12 or 15 years and our experiences are very similar. Of course I took about 30 years off inbetween. Got a job and went back to school because I lost my fervor to be a rock star. Playing at least 4 or 5 nights a week for about the last 5 years of my music "career" and finally acknowledging that the music I loved to write and play wasn't gonna get it done for the general public, I grew tired of it all and sold my equipment. My only regret was not holding on to my C3 (that, and "quiting" for 30 years).

So, as I have mentioned before, this is the perfect venue/stage at the present time for my passion. I wouldn't close the door on some success, but its not my motivator.

And John, don't believe yourself if you think you don't have a muscian's skills and heart!

You are wrong here, you are an artist in your style of music

Interesting discussion!

Being a technician more than a musician, I agree with Kara.

To be honest, in the last months I have learned to put my over-skilled-software aside and concentrate to play music with my QY700 (which is a great sequencer) and my motif rack (and a wx as controller).

As a result, I have a lot more fun and satisfaction of what I do with this setup.

It's a good thing forgetting from time to time technology and concentrate on what it's all about: music !!!

Moon

Seems like we went down the same path, Fred  ;D

I been following this thread with some interest, but haven't much time at the moment to write.

I've had similar pedigree to some of you guys. First guitar at age 13 in '62, played in 'pop' groups til, after having an on-stage electrocution when I was 15 (and was too young to sue the venue!) I was given some records to listen to whilst recovering in hospital.  John Lee Hooker and Sonny Boy Williamson......that was me converted!!
I played the blues and was part of the (British) blues revival of the mid 60's until I was enticed in a different direction through discovering the cross-over between blues and folk music. I then did folk clubs and festivals til '75, when I virtually stopped playing, due to family commitments.
I always kept a guitar at home and taught both my daughters to play, along with basic keyboard skills.
Two years ago my younger daughter fancied a 'penny-whistle' course at the local college but wouldn't go without me!  That was the thing that kick-started me back into music. I learned the whistle, I picked up the guitar again to help out with accompaniments for the rest of the class, I followed this with a basic 'music technology' course and then realised that I could record myself at home!
Enlightenment, at last.
So now here I am. Sitting at a computer that I only learned to use 3 years ago, making age-old music, and being able to multi-track myself playing as the band that I always wanted to be in!!
So....I don't know if it is a hobby (yes, as it fills in my spare time), or art (maybe, as I also paint and draw and find music is another creative outlet), or just simply a part of my 'being'.
Anyways.......it's brilliant being here amongst you people.  I had two collabs here within weeks of first joining, and look forward to more.  My first love is 'real' instrumentation. I like to play and record acoustic, but also love the contrast of mixing traditional with electronic.  My biggest disappointment is that I can not sing!  Anyone wants to take my tunes and put words to them......just go ahead.  Some tune that aren't over here on the forum are over on my 'artist page'.
I notice that some of the contributors here don't have there own pages!   Try it...it's only a click away!!
 ;D
I'll come back to this when I have more time.

James
 ;) 

Well, I played bass in a hard-rock band when I was younger and we took inspiration from the 70's masters, but I'm not sure if I'm a musician or not.
Anyway all the people here really cares about music and we pay attention to compositions and also production quality. (maybe anyone with a different balance beetween the factors).
Non-musicians people tend to listen only to music and doesn't care about sounds and before mp3's they used to tape LP's so the quality isn't an issue to the 95 % of the music listeners.
I think we rappresent the 5 % (give or take...) ;)

Cheers

Well I'm very happy that there is still 5 % left
And even happier that we have people like that here  8)

Hi All

My background is mostly as a listener and appreciator of music. I always liked to sing along and often created my own vocal riffs and melodies over tunes that I enjoyed. I was discouraged from playing an instrument when I was young but I strongly felt the music and I always believed I had musical talent.

Fast forward twenty to thirty years and we now have the ability to create really good stuff on our affordable PC's. So thats what I did!

Re production vs the tune. I'm an amature at both so I've always just tried to play and sing what I felt and then try to make it sound as good as the music thats always inspired me. In my view the key to being productive musically is to work with and against one's limitations. I can't really play but I don't have to because I'm just doing my thing anyway ;) I couldn't do a "cover tune" to save my life :o

1 :)

You are very modest (humble??) here Mike.
I have 2 CD's of you and consider them both as TOP products. The full CD's are allways on mp3 player in a category 'do never delete'  8)

With the technical evolution happening in the audio domain, I wonder what we can consider now as an 'instrument'. With all VST's and VST's available, we could ask ourselves if we shouldn't consider a full DAW & sequencer as an instrument on its own ?

kara..couldn't agree more with that..whatever you use to make music is an instrument..you have to devlelop skill in using it..then use it to make music..in the end it's still music.


Wyatt

Hey ONE the most important thing is the result, I don't care which tools you used or how you handled it.
I like to listen to the music. I still keep your TYT album in my keeper folder and I like it.
You should be proud of your music  ;)

I'm not a very talented musician but I like to make music as a pastime (hobby). Not really ear-trained I've difficulties to make a cover too  :-[

I usually balance the effort to write a good tune with the resarch of original solution to achieve a good production
'Balance' means I'm bad in both activities  ;D ;D :D ;)

Cheers