61-key Boards

[Fred S]

Hi folks! How are you all doing?

I'm looking to rearrange my live rig...dropping the laptop based utility.

I'm using the S90es as my piano board, and will be using a Hammond XK-1 for organ. So what I'm looking into is a 61-key board that excells in synth sounds, synth leads, brass & strings. Workstation utility is not important. Suspects include a used Korg Extreem, Korg M50, Juno-G, Yamaha M06, etc.

Looking for opinions.

Thom, you have a couple of these, right?

[Moon]

Fred,

The yamaha M06 is the first one to rule out: your S90es has all and better sounds than the M06.

Second one to rule out is the Korg Extreem, because there is the very cool M50.

Short list: Juno-G and M50. I prefer Korg, although the Roland is more sturdier for live usage.

There's also an alternative: a midi keyboard and using the sounds on your S90es.

Moon

[kara]

My opinion is biased for the simple reason that I'm a roland fan (although I'm very satisfied with my Korg PA500)
But I would go for the Juno G 

k

[elwoodblues1969]

Fred,

You said that a workstation is not important & yet every keyboard you mentioned is a workstation...but then again,it is hard to find all of the sounds you want in just a mere synthesizer and if you on a budget,than maybe sticking with Korg or Kurzweil,is the best thing.
Perhaps the ideal addition to your live gear set up,might be a Kurzweil stage piano(although I'm not sure how many synth sounds their stage pianos have,or if they even make one in a 61 key),so perhaps the new Kurzweil PC3LE6 might be just the ticket.....it does have a recording function-but it's very reasonably priced,excels in all the categories of sounds you need and has 61 semi-weighted keys.

I must disagree with Kara & Moon on the Roland Juno G,as I think it's a terrible idea,in my opinion.
I played one in a music store a few years ago,& the key action is piss poor(keys are too small & they're unweighted.
In recent months however,I had become interested in Roland's SRX library of expansion cards & their sounds, and I had thought that the Juno G would be a very inexpensive way to gain access to those expansion sets.
But here is where I ran into problems......the Juno G only has one SRX compartment and the SRX expansions are circuit boards,so you cannot casually change out one for another & the boards are very vulnerable outside of the keyboard.
Here are the two biggest problems I have with the Juno G....the display screens are not that easy to see and a lot of the screens have been defective.
Secondly,the onboard sounds do not excel in any category and you'll end up spending a small fortune on a bunch of SRX expansions and turning the keyboard upside down & changing a SRX board with a screwdriver 2 or 3 times a night during a live performance is obviously ridiculous!

The Korg Triton Extreme is a great board...that is if you can find one in decent condition used.If for some reason you will end up using the recording function,then the Korg M50 would be a very good choice-as it's inexpensive & the only downside to the M50,is the piano sounds(but you already have this sound category covered).
The M50 is made up of all plastic,so I strongly recommend a case for it,if you decide to buy one.

All things considered though,I think the Kurzweil PC3LE6 is your ideal solution,because it has more sounds then the M50 and it's not much more in price,than the M50.

Hope this helps you out some.     Korg M50 $1099  Kurzweil PC3LE6

$1299

-Thom

[elwoodblues1969]

I don't know very much about either of these two synthesizers and I don't know what your price range is,but if your budget is tight & you would like to bypass the workstation end of things,then perhaps the Korg X50 might work for you?($699)
I strongly suspect that the Nord Electro 3 would be the clear choice in terms of quality sounds,but then,it's very expensive!($1899)

-Thom

[Fred S]

Thanks for all the advice gents! Your right about the M06, Moon. Regarding using a controller, I'm really trying to get away from that. However, going with a dedicated organ board (lots of good reasons for that) leaves me without piano & synth together. I've considered keyboard splits on the S90, which does cut down on gear, but also has its drawbacks. I consider that a good fallback option. 

When it comes to hardware, I've always been a Korg guy. Although I must say, I'm quite taken with the S90. Because of the price, I was wondering how well the x50 & m50 compare in quality of sound. The x50 is certainly a nice price if it can handle the needs. The Juno and Kurzweil are also in an ok price range, but I have no experience whatsoever with either Roland or Kurzweil. I played with the Extreem a couple years ago for a couple hours and remember being impressed. I've heard that the Juno has a few very popular patches...not sure if that's true.

Your right about workstation utility Thom, most of the good boards include that function. Doesn't really matter I guess, it doesn't get in the way. And, recording is not important to me.

I should probably go hang out at the local GC for a while and compare the sounds.

[elwoodblues1969]

Fred,

Since you need good pianos & synths together,then I would strongly recommend the Kurzweil PC3LE6 and suggest that you forget the Korg M50 & X50 altogether.
I think going out & testing some keyboards for yourself is the most important thing,but I don't think you'll find a better fit for your needs,than with the PC3LE6.

Good luck,

-Thom

[Fred S]

I should have been clearer, Thom. What I was trying to get at is piano and synth with either hand, not layered. The S90es has a very nice piano. For example, many songs call for adding strings later in the tune and I'll do that with my left. That said however, I will definitely look into the Kurzweil anyway.

[rharv]

For your use I would counter Elwood's opinion and suggest the Juno-G as an option... and since I own one compared to seeing one... well ya know.

Go have a listen to one first, see if you like the sounds. That will be a personal thing. Apparently Thom didn't like the sounds that much.  The strings and horns are very good (not necessarily the 'GM' set but the many others), and a lot of the 'synthy' sounds are well built too.
There are a ton of them in there, and I happen to like a lot of them.

I agree the keyboard itself is not my favorite, I would prefer one with aftertouch and a little more feel.  However, if you are using another board for the controller, that point is cast out the window!

The screen is fine for me, I have never had an issue with it, and his post is the first time I have heard there are any issues with the screen. Patch names show up very large (good for gigs with poor lighting) and maneuvering thru the banks is easy with the buttons and scroller.

One thing to know about the Juno-G and expansion; it is extremely expandable. It holds only 1 SRX card, but offers a couple other expansion options.

I added a DIMM memory (common 133 computer type) to boost the internal memory from 128meg to 512, this made it possible to load more sounds at once.  I also added a 1 gig CompactFlash expansion so I can hold another gig of customized sounds.  Then I threw in my favorite SRX card and the thing has a TON of available sounds now.

I like the programmability of the board, and the fact that it has dedicated sound shaping knobs (hard to find these days) instead of a menu to sift thru to find the attack/resonance, etc.

I have been extremely pleased with mine!  I have a couple friends that got the comparable Korg and Yammie boards.. and they now admit I got the better deal for the same price.  Dollar for dollar it is a great value.

[Marc JX8P]

You should also check out the Juno Di; Sonic State (my favourite music website) has some great video reviews up on it and they seem to really like it.

[elwoodblues1969]

Yeah....keyboard sounds are a very personal choice,which is why I agreed thoroughly,that Fred should try out some boards at the G.C. store.
However though,I've spent a solid hour & a half going through all of the Fantom X's sounds(which obviously is a much more expensive keyboard then the Juno G),& I was not impressed by a single patch on it.
I have devoted an awful lot of time in research of Roland products...playing the instruments,listening to every sound demo online I could find,listening to user demos and spending a lot of time on the Roland Clan forum and in all of my research,I have discovered that(as my opinion),that Roland's way of conducting business is to stock their workstations with average sounds,in order to prompt the user to buy their expansion cards...thus making a killing in the market.
I am not anti Roland,as I still love the Super JX-10 to this day & I think that in general,their stand alone synths are exceptional...such as the V-Synth,but I strongly feel that without the SRX and ARX sound libraries,the Roland workstations leave a lot to be desired for truly exceptional stock sounds,which is what Fred is after.
Since Rharv does own a Juno G,then I'll agree that there's a few sounds that Fred could find useful-but as a whole,the Juno G will not have nearly everything Fred is looking for,as you get what you pay for and the name of the game with Roland,is the expansion cards and having to decide on just one SRX card,is not something that sits well with me.
One really interesting thing about Roland-is their fan base...it's like nothing I've ever seen.After having spent a few weeks on the Roland Clan forum,I have been witness to the most fierce brand loyalties I've ever come across.
In a discussion there,I had mentioned that I felt that my Korg Triton Extreme's brass sounds were one of the most impressive features of the board and I had even posted some of my songs on their forum.
Interestingly enough,one person there claimed that his stock brass sounds on his Juno G exceeded my Korg's brass sounds by leap & bounds.
I guess to him,the Juno G sounds like the Boston Symphony Orchestra...but I wonder how many folks actually feel the same way.
It's not my wish at all,to get into a pissing contest over brand names with anyone,but the fact remains that with all budget workstations,there are going to be compromises and corners cut and a $1,000 is only going to take you just so far.
In the case of the Korg M50...they seriously cut corners on their piano samples which are very weak,there's no expandability and the entire keyboard is made of plastic-but here's the thing,your money is well spent on the remaining features of this keyboard...including the stock brass sounds,drums,guitars & synths,LCD screen and the sequencer.
The Kurzweil PC3LE6's has it's drawbacks as well.....a tiny LCD screen,no full VAST editing & poor guitar samples.....but again,it's all in the stock sounds & their bread & butter sounds are indisputedly good for the price,such as Kurzweil's pianos,drums,synths,strings & brass.

Bottom line-as far as I'm concerned,after having considered everything out there myself....the one main thing that separates Roland from everyone else,is that just about all of their workstations are expandable and the SRX library is the largest expansion set out there and I feel that's it's due to a lot of the average stock sounds that come included with in their workstations.

For Fred's sake,I hope I am completely wrong about the Juno G-because if I am, & Fred ends up loving the Juno G-then good for him,because it will be a good value for him then.

I think that Fred should test everything out there that he can,because that's what I did & I have no regrets at this point.


-Thom

[Fred S]

Its funny how when things change, they were the same all along! I spent more years than I want to admit chasing hardware, then a few years swallowed up in the softsynth jungle (including an admittedly OC search for the best sampled piano!), and a couple more years on guitars/amps/etc. Now, here I am again...just the toys have changed with time, lol.

I got lucky with the S90es (advice from a symphony playing cyber friend didn't hurt!), and I know Hammonds, so that choice was easy. It seems however, the last piece is still in the jungle!

Also looking at compact mixers. I think I've settled on a Mackie 1202. Also want an in-ear wireless monitors...

Yours truly, afflicted

[rharv]

That S90es is indeed a nice board.
Happy hunting for the next trophy!

For in-ear we always used the standard Shure set, pretty adaptable for our uses; supplied a couple channels so there was a choice of 'mix' in your ear.   We usually really used it just for the 'click' when we were running shows that required precision... but we often threw the vocals in there too, as everything elase was pretty loud already!

I'm sure there are many other options out there for monitors of this type.

As for the Roland group being committted to their kit .. it might tell ya something!  I know I look to Roland first myself.
I've watched many boards fail and fall apart over the years.  My Juno 106 is still in pristine condition (first real 'digital' synth  I owned).   Barry has gone thru two of the $1000 yammies in the same time period (on his third).   My W-30 is still capable of running whole shows, including lights, and the Juno-G is just FUN to me .. the EP760 is played everyday by the whole family .. Every Roland I have ever bought is still ready to be played any time.  
To be fair, Barry also had a Juno106 and his died an ugly death.... after he leaned it up against the garage and forgot it there, it got rained on all night.. I was afraid to plug it in!  He let it sit a couple days, without opening and attempting to dry it.. you can imagine the results..  contacts scratchy, etc. from corrosion ..  I use cases to avoid this type of thing, that poor synth sat out there naked in the rain!

[elwoodblues1969]

Nothing quite as exhilarating as a good,prolonged & hearty gear discussion....it does not happen here often,so when it does happen here,it's the best,as it's always friendly!

@Fred.....as for the Mackie 1202-I have one & I love it to death!I normally prefer slider controls,but since the rotary knobs are so smooth & solid...well,it works for me big time.
In fact,the whole tactile aspect of this mixer is a dream to work with.....it's really built like a tank from top to bottom.
I especially love the generous amount of stereo line inputs and the mic pre-amps are very clean,as well as it being an all around low noise unit.

-Thom

[rharv]

I just remembered I posted a brass sample from the Juno-G on another forum recently.
The flugelhorn just blew me away!

http://audiomastering-online.com/stuff/makebelieve.mp3

studio strings and bass were from that unit too, but I did this to show the flugelhorn.. so not much attention paid to those other sounds; they are just stock out of the board
Its only 30 seconds or so in length

never heard a complaint about the mackie mixer mentioned

BTW the M06 was not reliable for us, it was one of the yammies that gave Barry problems-
power cable connection, bad key, etc.