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Author Topic: Sample rates: 44.1khz versus 48Khz  (Read 16897 times)
elwoodblues1969
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 09:27:45 PM »

Moon,

I don't see why 24 bit would not be better to work with in general,provided that you have good A/D & sample rate converters,but my whole point was,is that the Fusion was poorly designed with poor A/D converters,so how is it that the Fusion could sound better than the Oasys-just solely because of the 24 bit of the Fusion?

As I see it,there are no compromises in build & material quality in the Oasys whatsoever and Korg spared no expense in the manufuacturing of the keyboard-hence the heavy price tag.

If the Oasys had a 24 bit audio recorder instead,then I am sure that this bit rate would improve things even further,coupled with the high quality A/D conversion.

With all these aspects covered in this thread-it raises yet,even another interesting question in my mind...which is that if there is little or no benefit to using 48kHz & then converting to 44.1,then what is the advantage to using 24 bit,if it's going to be converted to 16 bit anyway?

I'm really getting lost being so immersed in this discussion...somebody help!! Huh Undecided Grin

Elwood
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rharv
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 10:26:31 PM »

There is really not much difference in those two sample rates..
 maybe a tiny bit of sonic headroom... but I can't give a definitive answer on what you will hear in 48 that you won't hear in 44.1
 When it comes to a synth-I guess what would matter more is the convertor being used..maybe some 48 convertors are a bit better than 44.1, so the actual quality of the transfer from audio to digital (or digital to audio) is better (?)
Maybe 48 convertors that sound (technically) better can be had for a better price..
Maybe the architecture of the way samples are handled inside that particular synth works better with the 48 convertors..

 Elwood- the change from 16bit to 24bit will be more noticable than the change from 44 to 48..

 From 16 to 24bits is only an 8bit increase, but that's half of the original 16 bit!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 10:34:02 PM by rharv » Logged

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Moon
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2007, 07:03:05 AM »

Elwood- the change from 16bit to 24bit will be more noticable than the change from 44 to 48..

 From 16 to 24bits is only an 8bit increase, but that's half of the original 16 bit!

Maths:
16 bit is a value between 0 and 65.536
24 bit is a value between 0 and 16.777.216

Meaning: you don't get half us much more detail, but you get 256 times more detail. So, yes, there is a very big difference between 16 bit and 24 bit !

24 bit is giving you much more headroom to work with, which is good to keep the S/N raitio to a minimum and which offer plenty of room if your music has silent and load parts.

Moon
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rharv
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2007, 11:28:16 AM »

Yeah, it's funny how exponentially, what sounds like a little is a lot.
Thanks for giving the actual numbers..puts it in better perspective.
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Fred S
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2007, 09:18:41 PM »

24 bit is giving you much more headroom to work with, which is good to keep the S/N raitio to a minimum and which offer plenty of room if your music has silent and load parts.

Moon
I've heard this same reason for using 24 bit, on several occasions.
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deaf dunderkwac
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« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2007, 05:30:04 AM »

I don't know how much help this is, but, yes, a standard CD is 44.1 and 16 bit. So, eventually, if its going on a CD, it will end up at that standard.

Not sure why some equipment is set at 48. Some old Soundblaster cards were set at 48 only. Would cause occasional problems when shared and used in a 44.1 projects.

I've heard that bit depth is more important relative to sound. I think the current standard for recording is at 44.1 and 24 bit. Of course, the bit depth will have to be dithered down to 16 bit for the general CD consumer. 

Bill (deaf dunderkwac) has excellent knowledge in this area, so perhaps he'll chime in. 

some one say my name lol?

quick rundown...
44.1 legacy standard for CD chosen at the time because it was the best compromise of the available technology.

...along comes digital audio-video recorders and a standard had to be chosen and it's hard to divide 44.1 into 30 fps (or, if you will, 29.97 frames per second (fps) rounded to 30 for teh easy math types such as meself) so somebody chose 48.

by the time rofessional digital video came along technology had surpassed the old CD standard and the techno's finally figured out that 16 bit was just too hard (cost-wise) to filter so they went for 24 bits. Important to remember that the bits are the number of slices taken each sample. 8-bits would have 256 slices and you can look up the rest <grin>. The filters have to smooth the transition between slices and during the record process, not allow any energy above 1/2 the sample-rate (otherwise aliasing would happen) The higher the sample rate, the easier it is to filter out the bad stuff) (the higher the bit-depth the easier it is to smooth the steps)

Many audio purists thought 44.1 @ 16-bit was <horribly>  inadequate for sampling (recording) as all sorts of distortions were added to the signal so there was alot of experimentation done in the 90's.
recording a sound at 192kHz @24-bit is like passing the signal through a short piece of wire... there was no deterioration at all!
But it was later shown that most of the deterioration of the signal was happening in the filters (used to smooth the 'steps' of the slices
-Better filters were developed...
If you do this for a living I would hazard that recording at 96 or 192 kHz@ 24 bits would be 'the thing to do' but any bit rate 20 or above is easier on the golden-eared peoples of the world.

You can always down-sample (convert from 192 to 96 to 48) with impunity but if you up-sample you're not gaining anything. You cannot create bits that aren't there.

real-time Sample-rate converters  (SRC) convert the digital signal to <gasp> analog then re-sample at the new rate (actually, they sound pretty good nowadays)


The above information is really only for those who sample (record) real instruments
I use vst's which don't have the same issues (instead they have other issues and I don't even wanna discuss the vst's based on samples Cheesy )
 hope this helps a little.
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elwoodblues1969
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« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2007, 12:19:52 PM »

D.D.,

Your very comprehensive,yet very clear & easy to understand info & explanation was a tremendous help to me.

Thanks for sharing your technical knowledge. Cool

Elwood
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deaf dunderkwac
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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2007, 09:09:33 PM »

You're welcome

a last gasp at the subject.

does anyone still make cd's? Hopefully your sound interface can work at multiples o 44.1 (88.2 et al) If not there are not-so-realtime src's that do an excellent job of conversion.
My host does an ok job of mixing SR (sample rate) and media types (mp3 wav and ogg) but in the recent past most hosts 'could' mix and match but at varying degrees of success.

It's usually better to convert all the tracks to the same SR and media (wav preferred for teh windz users) as that takes quite a load of of your computer's processor(s) so you can ad MOR EFFECTS.
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Fred S
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2007, 11:59:38 PM »

Thanks, Bill!
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