Are my ears that bad?

[bvdp]

I've long heard people saying how crappy laptop built-in sound cards are.

So, I was a bit hesitant on setting up a gigging setup consisting of my MMA generated midi files being played with timidity on my el-cheapo Acer laptop. The laptop has an Intel HDA card and my complicated wiring uses a single mini RCA plug into the headphone jack out to a 1/4" jack to the PA.

I copied the midi files, timidity and some decent soundfonts over to the laptop, plugged it in to my PA and played some files. Sounded fine to me. Ahh, but they would sound so much better with an external sound card, I thought. Mind you, I didn't find anything distasteful about what I was hearing. So, before spending even more money on my habit ...

Time for some tests.

1. Played the same midi files on the laptop and from my desktop which has a M-audio 24/96 Audiophile soundcard though the PA. Honestly, I did hear some minor differences (I think they are eq diffs), but couldn't say one was better.

so, thinking my PA isn't the greatest in the world ...

2. Connected my laptop to my Berhinger MS20 speakers. Sure, not the greatest speakers in the world, but they don't sound too bad??? Again, listened to the same files from the laptop and the desktop. Again, a bit of eq diff, but they both sound just fine.

3. Okay, maybe the timidity stuff is crap. So, I played some MP3 files on both systems ... again, I can't say one is better than the other.

So, I figure that either all my equipment is shit (or the laptop isn't all that bad after all), my ears are gone (I'm going to be 60 later this year), or I really don't know what I'm doing or listening to. Either that, or all this quality of sound stuff is just BS.

Frankly, I think that the problem is that I really don't know what it is that I'm supposed to be hearing. I'm a musician. I can hear an out-of-pitch note immediately and tell you that the drummer is off-the-beat. I can tell you, often, the name of a sax player by listening to his tone on a recording. I'm certainly not deaf (or stupid). But, sound quality? I'm lost.

So, what am I supposed to be hearing?

[folderol]

I think you would likely find that if you were to try recoding with the laptop it would be a very different story.

D-A converters have always been far easier to design than A-D ones. Indeed it is possible to get passable results by simply modulating the mark-space ratio of a synthesised square wave at around 30kHz, and stuffing it through a lowpass filter (the basis of class D amplifiers).

Todays dedicated sound chips have good inherent noise canceling, and the multi-layer motherboards have better ground-plane designs.

Having said all that, as it seems you're in the same {cough} maturity {cough} bracket as a number of us, it's almost certain that your top end hearing is less than perfect

I just work on making it sound right to me, and hope others agree

[elwoodblues1969]

Bob,

Since there are many avenues through which a signal has to travel,it's critical to upgrade all of your gear,as supposed to focusing on-say,your sound card & wires & then going super cheap with your monitors or using PA speakers.
Any weak link in the chain,can negatively effect your end result & there are many musicians out there that are big hi-fi gear heads when it comes to there instruments & soundcards,but they are not giving any thought to the type of audio cables & monitors they should be investing into.Maintaining the strength & sonic character of a signal from point A to point B,means that all of your gear-cables,monitors & all,should be equal in quality.
Of course,being knowledgeable about the cables & monitors your buying & knowing what to look for when you make your purchase,is crucial.
Just 5 years ago,I was in your position....I began thinking about making the transition from bookshelf speakers & keyboard amps,to studio monitors...high end cables & such,but I was not sure where to begin.
My first pair of studio monitors were a pair of Samson Resolv 40a's....they were certainly a step above speakers you find in Radioshack & I thought the world of them & I faithfully used them for about a year,before I decided to upgrade.However though,it was not until I got serious about studio recording,that I began educating myself about studio gear,using the internet....I interacted with audio forums,spoke with Sweetwater.com sales people,read through countless gear tutorial articles,read countless gear reviews,watched YouTube videos,read through countless detailed product descriptions on various websites from the manufacturers of the gear I was interested in.
I discovered how balanced,properly shielded cables can significantly make or break an audio signal & I discovered how the properly engineered studio monitor-with the necessary upgrade in components & materials,can fully reveal all of the nuances & inflections of an audio signal,which dramatically determines how you mix your material.
Many live musicians don't take the time to immerse themselves in these areas & until they get serious about recording & mastering their own material-as supposed to relying on someone else to do it,they're going to be oblivious to how critical gear upgrades are.
One of the most detrimental things a musician can do,is to be entirely too focused on saving money & letting your super thrifty budget,dictate what gear you buy....if you want to resolve your audio issues,than you have to make concessions,but taking the time to set aside the necessary funds to acquire the upgrades you would need.
I'm speculating that your Acer laptop is not really an accessory to the problem...since you have a external audio card & M-Audio is of decent quality.
For critical listening,a PA set up is not the way to go,as PA's are built to withstand high volumes & to project the sound over a vast area,so the components in a PA system are quite different from what you would find in a studio monitor........however though,an entry level Behringer speaker,is not much different than what you would find in a Wal-Mart store.
Pro music stores are no different than walking into a discount department store...meaning that there are products to accommodate all walks of life..the budget-minded & the audiophiles alike.
In the music store arena,Behringers are the bottom of the barrel & this company is notorious for cutting to many corners & focusing too much & their profit margin.
Behringer monitors are well known for their muddy sonic character & there innate ability to pick up RF interference.
In order to obtain a pair of monitors with a fair amount of accuracy,would be to start with studio monitors that are bi-amplified with electronic crossovers built into the speaker cabinets.These two features provide a much cleaner signal path...but of course,there are varying degrees of this,depending on how much money your willing to spend & what brand you choose.
The absolute cheapest pair of monitors that I could suggest that are of decent quality,would be the M-Audio BX5a Deluxe monitors($300 a pair).For a $100 more,the JBL LSR2325P's would be an excellent choice,as far as budget monitors go.
There's quite a difference also,between the monitors I just mentioned & the ones I use in my studio,which are the M-Audio CX5's & the Adam A7's...but I am a audiophile nutcase & I've spent the last 5 years building up & upgrading the gear in my set up,solely for the purpose of critical listening to record mix & master my material.
I don't know what your goals are,but from what I've gathered from your post,I think the BX5a's or the LSR2325P's would be ideal for you....I hope my input has helped you some.

-Thom

[Oren]

I just work on making it sound right to me, and hope others agree

Bob,

The saving grace for all listening situations (for a producer/engineer) is the reference recording. Compare the track you are trying to evaluate to a recording you know and enjoy. No matter what condition your hearing may be in (short of complete deafness), a careful comparison of this nature will allow you to definitively determine the characteristics of a recorded track.
Likewise with audio equipment. Make the comparison starting with a collection of gear you know and trust. Then, replace one of your components with the item you are evaluating, and listen critically. Very reliable. (as Thom says, don't throw a nice component in with a chain of garbage equipment and expect it to sound good)

My experience with high-end audio equipment and with high-definition digital audio is that many of the claims of superior performance are a result of either sales gimmicks, or "technical snobbery". In many cases, listeners will actually "hear" improvements that don't actually exist, because of the high price tag of the item, or because of the big numbers (high bit-rate and sampling rate) associated with a digital audio software tool.
Generally, if you can't hear a difference, then there isn't one. At least not a significant one. Trust your ears....

One interesting feature that has come to light of late is the ability of an experienced listener to hear more of an audio recording than a casual listener, even when the casual listener scores better in hearing tests. Another concern is that many people will score "low" on a hearing test due to nervousness, but their ears will function very well under normal conditions.
If it's any comfort, I've heard your mixdowns - your hearing is excellent. Or very similar to mine (yes, be afraid, be very afraid... )

[bvdp]

Thanks Guys for the comments. Appreciated. I'll try to answer all in this one mail ...

First folderol:

I think you would likely find that if you were to try recoding
with the laptop it would be a very different story.

 Yes, I'm sure you're right. Getting stuff into the box is much harder. And, being an old guy, I have found that NOT using my computer for this is much easier. Having to deal with latency issues drives me nuts.

Having said all that, as it seems you're in the same {cough} maturity {cough} bracket as a number of us, it's almost certain that your top end hearing is less than perfect Roll Eyes

Ummm, did you really need to remind me of my mortality However, I've been told that getting older is much better than the alternatives! Mind you, I do play accordion ... and we've (all?) seen the cartoon where, when you enter Hell, the devil is handing out accordions

elwoodblues1969:

I think we're agreeing. But, remember that I'd talking about a little rig to go out gigging with. So, yes, I do need to play though a PA. For studio work it is certainly a different game!

I discovered how balanced,properly shielded cables can significantly make or break an audio signal 

Okay, I'm sure you are right. And the same certainly applies to each other component in the chain. But, just what does this "breakage" sound like? Is it a lack of certain freqs, noise, distortion, all of the above? Seriously, I do want to know what you audio experts are hearing when you say it's "not so good" or "it's broken". Again, remember that I listen to old Louis Armstrong recordings which were done in the 30s/40s on real crappy equipment, remastered, etc. and I find them fine. Unless I really concentrate I don't hear the hiss, etc ... I'm listening to the song, not the recording.

Oren:

The saving grace for all listening situations (for a producer/engineer) is the reference recording. 

Yes, excellent point. Very hard to compare things when you're not comparing apples with apples, etc.

My experience with high-end audio equipment and with high-definition digital audio is that many of the claims of superior performance are a result of either sales gimmicks, or "technical snobbery".

Oh, no ... say it's not so! You mean those oxygen free, etc. cables really don't make a difference .

When learning saxophone I found the same BS ... and fell for it. Kept trying to get better by spending money on equipment .. and the sad truth is that to get better one just has to practice. A lot! But, the gear syndrome does keep the economy going

If it's any comfort, I've heard your mixdowns - your hearing is excellent. Or very similar to mine (yes, be afraid, be very afraid... Cheesy)

Appreciate that! Very much.

I guess I'll use the rig I've got then for some gigs and see what happens. Seriously, the last thing I'm concerned about is that someone in the audience will comment on my "sound". Biggest problem in rural anywhere is getting the cowboys to even listen to, let alone appreciate, the kind of music I do. Sorry, different topic/rant

Best,

[elwoodblues1969]

Bob,

Cables are responsible for everything you hear,so yes...distortion,clarity,bandwidth are all a factors.As for gigging on the road though,something durable & flexible like Spectraflex cables should do you just fine.

-Thom

[Alienz]

Everytime i upgrade anything in my studio, soundcard, speakers, amps etc I can hear stuff in my favorite songs that i never heard before, myabe you should try your listening tests with songs you know very well?
I never forget the first time I got some above average speakers, I could suddenly almost understand what Lou Reed was singing! 

Downside to my newest setup (new amp +speakers) is that now I hear how horrible mp3's can sound

[Oren]

I never forget the first time I got some above average speakers, I could suddenly almost understand what Lou Reed was singing! 

Do the new speakers make any sense of what Bob Dylan has been singing lately...?

[folderol]

A quote I saw somewhere:
Bob Dylan writes brilliant songs, that everyone else sings better

[Oren]

A quote I saw somewhere:
Bob Dylan writes brilliant songs, that everyone else sings better

 

Have a listen to Rambling Jack Elliot sometime, and hear where Bob "borrowed" his style from. Jack, who was a contemporary of Woody Guthrie, was playing in a bar one night in the early '70s (after some 25 years of writing/performing) when a young patron came up to him and said, "Hey, you sound just like Bob Dylan!".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2172043991928853919

[bvdp]

[
Have a listen to Rambling Jack Elliot sometime, and hear where Bob "borrowed" his style from. Jack, who was a contemporary of Woody Guthrie, was playing in a bar one night in the early '70s (after some 25 years of writing/performing) when a young patron came up to him and said, "Hey, you sound just like Bob Dylan!".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2172043991928853919

I was going to make a smart-ass comment the he must be lip syncing to Dylan ...but then I realized I could understand his words ... so I guess he's not Dylan

[Alienz]

I never forget the first time I got some above average speakers, I could suddenly almost understand what Lou Reed was singing! 

Do the new speakers make any sense of what Bob Dylan has been singing lately...?

The manual clearly states ' do NOT play any Bob Dylan on these speakers!', so I'm not even gonna try...

[Oren]

The manual clearly states ' do NOT play any Bob Dylan on these speakers!', so I'm not even gonna try...

Finally, someone who actually reads the manual...